How I became an atheist (Jesus, priests, rituals, moral)

[MidnightBlue]

In another thread, I was asked:

Originally Posted by madhatter85

MidnightBlue - it says in ur profile that you are an atheist, so why should it matter what we think since we believe in a god and you dont? or do you actually believe in a god but want to be on the "Athiest" bandwagon so you can be accepted by your friends?? or do you feel like you want to not believe in a god because then you can feel free to do what you want without concequence? what is it really like for you i woudl like to truely know.

No. Both of your suppositions are way off base.

If I merely wanted "to not believe in a god because then [I could] feel free to do what [i] want without" consequence, I wouldn't really be an atheist. I would be a theist who resented God and wanted to ignore him.

As for being on the "atheist bandwagon" so I can be accepted by my friends, most of my friends aren't atheists. I can only think of three people I know fairly well who are atheists, and only one of them is a close friend -- and she's not at all militant about her atheism. Her late husband was very vocal about his atheism -- why shouldn't he be? -- but we were close friends even when I was a Christian, and there was never any pressure from him or anyone else to renounce or even reconsider my religion. My husband is still a Christian. Most of my close friends are still Christians. All of my close relatives are Christians of some sort or another. So what happened?

I was an Orthodox Christian, but I believed very strongly that the Orthodox Church was wrong in its teachings on women and homosexuals. I was saddened by the life and death of a gay friend of mine who despised himself because he was gay and because he accepted what the Church had to say about that. I realized that the Church freely made exceptions to the teachings of Jesus when it came to heterosexuals: the Church allows heterosexuals to divorce and remarry up to twice, recognizing that humans can't always live up to the letter of the law. However, there is no such exception made for homosexuals. No pastoral discretion, no understanding, nothing. I heard lots of hateful remarks about queers from Orthodox clergy. Not all of them, mind you, but even the most compassionate of them remained firm that there was no place in the Church for a gay person who didn't conform to the Church's ideal, no matter what exceptions might be made for straight people. I came to see the Church as a bad mother, one who loves her straight children more than her gay children, and treats them accordingly. I made up my mind that, much as it saddened me, I would leave her house.

At that time, I was still a Christian, and still a Trinitarian, and still wanted a church life, but I was determined that I wouldn't join a church where women were treated differently from men, or where gay people were treated differently from straight people. That narrowed it down quite a bit.

I attended the MCC Church, but I didn't like it at all. The theology, what there was of it, was sloppy, though it tended toward Evangelical Christianity. The manner of celebrating the Eucharist was distasteful, and even scandalous, to me. They were kind, warm people, but it wasn't the place for me.

I decided to try the United Church of Christ, a church with a liberal reputation and a liturgical form of worship. It was also the church of my grandmother and my great-grandmother, and I had attended a UCC Church in the summers when I was a child, so I thought it would feel like something of a homecoming. At that time, the nearest UCC church was almost a two hours' drive away, but we went anyway. We loved the church and the people, who were very warm and welcoming, but I was troubled by one thing: They told us that the other churches in their association weren't as accepting of gay people, and that they were working to improve the situation in their denomination.

I did a little homework, and learned that the UCC Association of Western North Carolina had a policy against ordaining gay people. I learned that homosexuality remained very controversial in the denomination, and that despite a welcoming stance by the denominational leadership, there were many individual congregations that were decidedly NOT welcoming. The UCC has a congregational polity, and each congregation is free to set its own policies for dealing with queers. In effect, the UCC encourages toleration and equality, but recognizes bigotry and exclusion as perfectly valid positions, too. That wasn't acceptable to me.

We had tried starting a house church, but it quickly became clear that I would have to assume a leadership role I didn't want. I wanted to be a Christian, but not a Christian clergyman. It just wasn't worth it. So I was left a Christian without a church.

Meanwhile, I had been questioning the value of the Creed as a litmus test for Christianity. Anybody could accept the Creed while blatantly rejecting the teachings of Jesus, and it seemed to me that if we professed to follow Jesus we should give more importance to his teachings than to the teachings of other people about Jesus.

That's about where I was when Beth Stroud was defrocked. Beth Stroud was a Methodist minister who was defrocked for being a lesbian. She was supported by her congregation, but accepted the denominational verdict and stayed on, working for her congregation as a lay minister. I realized that I was very angry -- not at the denominational leadership; what can you expect? I was angry at Beth Stroud. To accept a personal injustice may be meek and mild and virtuous, but to accept institutionalized injustice and bigotry against a whole class of people is a betrayal.

I believed that the churches had failed in their treatment of homosexuals, and many of them had failed in their treatment of women. I concluded that women and homosexuals who continued to belong to oppressive organizations lent validity to their own oppression. When you accept second-class status, you become part of the problem.

It was unethical to continue to lend support to an oppressive and bigoted system. So I renounced Christianity. It was a great moment of clarity, but I was still a Trinitarian; I just declined to accept the cultural baggage and bigotry of Christianity.

Very quickly, though, I realized that I no longer had any reason for being a Trinitarian. If the Christian churches had such obvious difficulties understanding sexuality and morality, and found it so very difficult to grant equality or even compassion to people like me, what was the chance that they had penetrated the Mystery of the Godhead? So my belief in the Trinity fell away as easy as if it had never been there, with no effort on my part, and I became a mere theist.

Almost as quickly, my theism suffered the same fate at my trinitarianism. I didn't see that the people who believed in a personal God or in divine revelation were more ethical, more perceptive, or more compassionate than other people -- usually, it was rather the opposite. I realized that, in general, people who believed in a personal God believed in all kinds of arrant nonsense, and that all too often their belief tended to make them less, rather than more, enlightened. And I didn't have any compelling reason to believe that anything any of them had to say about the divine was true.

So within weeks of renouncing Christianity I found myself, to my complete surprise, an atheist. I had found no reason to believe in any god, and all kinds of reasons to reject the pronouncements of those who did.

I still miss my mother, the Church. I loved her even if she didn't love me. But I'm glad to be out of her house, glad to be out of all such houses. My atheism came as a surprise to me, but it turns out that it's okay. If other people want to believe in a God, that's okay with me, too, as long as they don't try to force their beliefs or their religious regulations on me.

[s2a]

Pssst.

If you need to know more about atheism, or perhaps the locations where atheists do not gather to not believe; or whom not to follow; or in how much faith you are required to place upon/within (the religion of) "science" in order to be deemed a "true" atheist (we have our standards, don't you know ;-)); don't hesitate to request an "Atheists' Guide to Unbelief".

Please understand that you must remain as an unpracticed atheist for at least six months before any "true" atheist can share our mutually bonding secret handshake and double-secret initiation rituals (which might involve whoopee cushions, itching powder, and onion gum).

Namaste,

Cal

[michel]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

I was an Orthodox Christian, but I believed very strongly that the Orthodox Church was wrong in its teachings on women and homosexuals. I was saddened by the life and death of a gay friend of mine who despised himself because he was gay and because he accepted what the Church had to say about that. I realized that the Church freely made exceptions to the teachings of Jesus when it came to heterosexuals: the Church allows heterosexuals to divorce and remarry up to twice, recognizing that humans can't always live up to the letter of the law. However, there is no such exception made for homosexuals. No pastoral discretion, no understanding, nothing. I heard lots of hateful remarks about queers from Orthodox clergy. Not all of them, mind you, but even the most compassionate of them remained firm that there was no place in the Church for a gay person who didn't conform to the Church's ideal, no matter what exceptions might be made for straight people. I came to see the Church as a bad mother, one who loves her straight children more than her gay children, and treats them accordingly. I made up my mind that, much as it saddened me, I would leave her house.

Been there, done it, bought the tee - shirt. I am a Trinitian, I do not accept the words of the bible as being accurate representations of the inspiration of God, I feel that Christ would never turn his back on any of his children - and it is the Gnostic in me that has allowed me to believe what I do believe, without the need to feel guilty because I can't "buy in" with "off the peg" Religions.

For those who follow strict rules, in a way I admire them, but it just insn't the way for me. My prayers come from my heart, I have a personal relationship with God, and there are time when I am convinced he is helping me to understand things.

I don't know whether to say "lucky" or "unlucky", but for me, the dictates of various Churches smack of politics, and some rejectthose whom they consider have been "naughty" - that, I cannot and will never understand.

My father was disconnected (sorry, a family joke , what I mean is excommunicated) by the Roman catholic church because he found a new Love in WWII and married her, despite having been married in a Catholic Church. I can understand the church's stand on this, because, when I married my wife in Church (as my Father married his wife), I made a vow to remain "faithful until death do us part" - and I shall stick with that vow, and contract with God - but with me, it is easy; I have a wonderful wife whom I love with every fibre of my being ( though there are times when i don't like what she does, and I know the same applies to her).

We have arguments; well, for goodness' sake, we are only humans............

The other reason I am lucky is that my health would be a tremendous "bar" to being unfaithful...........just the thought of trying to be unfaithful (even if the opportunity presented itself with the wizest and most beautiful woman in the world) makes me feel like I need a rest.lol.

Besides, to me, my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, through my eyes.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by s2a

Pssst.

If you need to know more about atheism, or perhaps the locations where atheists do not gather to not believe; or whom not to follow; or in how much faith you are required to place upon/within (the religion of) "science" in order to be deemed a "true" atheist (we have our standards, don't you know ;-)); don't hesitate to request an "Atheists' Guide to Unbelief".

Please understand that you must remain as an unpracticed atheist for at least six months before any "true" atheist can share our mutually bonding secret handshake and double-secret initiation rituals (which might involve whoopee cushions, itching powder, and onion gum).

Namaste,

Cal

I hereby request said guide.

Atheist for years, btw.

[Victor]

As you choose to place this under comparative religion I shall share some food for thought and my own experience.

I can't say I've experienced the injustices you speak of in regards to the Church...but, I can tell you that of the varied homosexual friends I do have, two of them can empathize with you. One in specific is indeed Orthodox Christian and has had similar experiences. Not enough to drive him away just yet (although, he probably has a foot out the door), but it's crossed his mind.

I remember asking him "what keeps you in the Church?"...without a skipping a beat he said "I love her more then my own sexuality". I'm sure it's like this for many priests who are also homosexual (or heterosexual), but I imagine it must be a heavy cross to bare for those who don't fully express it.

My other friend was more of an effeminate homosexual. I've known him since I was boy. Most of the injustices he went through was mostly from society in general. Any attempt he ever made to step into an RC Mass was just too much for him. He stood out because he didn't hide his sexuality. You can only imagine the response. I had been around him and his friends for most of my childhood that I didn't understand the response. At the time, I wasn't catholic or even Christian for that matter, so I wasn't indoctrinated with any other view but that homosexuality was misunderstood (which I gradually came to realize).

At any rate, I can't say I empathize, but I can certainly sympathize. Not that you are asking for this or that it even makes a difference coming from someone who is still in momma's house.

That's it, for what it's worth.

[Jeremiah]

Thanks for sharing MidnightBlue.

I understand now why you have a good grasp of theist ways.

Me I am completely lost "a stranger in a strange land".

I would think that this question is responsible for taking me into theology:
"Why do some many people hate me?"

That question has taken me into politics, religion and a study of human nature, a place I did not want to go in the first place.

[lunamoth]

The teachings on homosexuality were the point of the wedge that separated me from the Baha'i Faith. I'm not gay, but I've known (and am related to) a number of people who are GLB, and I've always accepted it as simply a different expression of sexuality. When I became serious about the Baha'i Faith its teachings on homosexuality were a concern to me, but by that time I was swept away by the rest of the Baha'i Principles and the wonderful writings on peace and interfaith harmony, as well as the mysticism of works such as Seven Valleys. Like many Christian sects, Baha'is explain it as related to family and marriage: no sex outside of marriage, no marriage between same gender people, thus no homosexual relationships allowed. It is considered a spiritual illness. As I convinced myself, the Baha'i view was no worse than what Christianity espoused.

But a couple of things drove it home to me, after four years, that I could not accept this teaching. First, a pair of lesbian friends were seeking a religion. We knew several Baha'is in common so they knew that their relationship would not be allowed if they were to become part of the Baha'i Faith. As I talked to them, I realized that I was so happy for them as a couple and fully supported them in their relationship, talked with them about the wedding they hoped to have. But, I could not invite them to consider the Baha'i Faith for their spiritual home. Even though they were not asking me about the Baha'i Faith directly, I was thinking to myself, what kind of religion is this that I can't welcome them into it?

Next I started thinking about my daughter. What if she someday discovered that she was a lesbian? What if for all those years she was growing up she was learning that homosexuality is a spiritual disease? And that she would have to choose celibacy if she wanted to stay in the faith I was teaching her was God' 'latest and best' edition? I would have been sending her messages of shame all those years. That's not good for her as a person or for our relationship or family.

Then, it happened that the vote came up in MO about whether to pass a ban on same sex marriage. I believed that SSM should be allowed. How could I vote in favor of SSM if my religion teaches that it is a spiritual disease? Either I follow my religion or I follow my conscience. In the Baha'i Faith, these teachings are supposed to be infallible. Yet I did not believe it.

In Christianity there is much debate about homosexuality, especially in the church I attend, the Episcopal Church. I have liberal views, one of which is that I think God cares a lot more about the quality of our love and relationships than about sex. I hope the Episcopal Church continues to move toward upholding that ideal.

[s2a]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

I hereby request said guide.

Atheist for years, btw.

Sure thing .

Said guide is available to all paid annual subscribers of my engrossing heretical newsletter, "Atheism for Fun and Profit: A User's Guide". Who says $1000 doesn't buy anything of value anymore?

;-)

[Tiberius]

I signed up for that last month. I'm waiting!