Destiny (ritual, rejecting, choices, choice, experience)

[maro]

“The foremost energies cannot pierce the walls of foreordained destinies.”

it's well known that islam supports the belief in destiny " Al Qadar " , and that it 's one of its major tenets ,
but also supports the belief of "free choice " , which means that god granted us free will to make choices , within the frame of our lives,

this link is useful for full understanding of this issue ,
http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml

And i would like to know wether your faith supports the belief of destiny or not

[Zephyr]

The Norns have decided my fate, but it's not mine to know.

[michel]

Originally Posted by maro

“The foremost energies cannot pierce the walls of foreordained destinies.”

it's well known that islam supports the belief in destiny " Al Qadar " , and that it 's one of its major tenets ,
but also supports the belief of "free choice " , which means that god granted us free will to make some choices , within the frame of our lives,

this link is useful for full understanding of this issue ,
http://www.islamonline.net/english/i...rticle03.shtml

And i would like to know wether your faith supports the belief of destiny or not

My personal form of Spirituality does; much as you described above, in that I have free choice "within the frame of my life" - though that Frame sounds much "wider" than yours.

[Terrywoodenpic]

I do not believe in Destiny.
I have read the article, you gave the link for, and am totally unconvinced by it.

We have discussed free will many time on this forum.
some believe free will is limited by Gods fore knowledge and others do not.
Mostly, those who argue the case for God's foreknowledge, do so with out fully understanding that God exists out side time and is therefore not limited by the one way flow, or any other aspect of time, including destiny.
Certainly, I do not believe that God has a path laid out for each of us, as indicated in the article.
When he gave us free will it was unconditional, in the same way his love is unconditional.

many of the realities as seen by Muslims, seem to limit the power of God to change or reveal new truths, as our path through time enables us to understand new things.

I believe neither God nor Religion is static or with out change.
The one overriding fact of existence is change, God must have willed it so.

[YmirGF]

I do not subscribe to the views expressed in this article that would seem to be based on circular reasoning. Part of my reason for outright rejecting the concept of so-called "destiny" or "predestination" lies in the idea that if indeed reality is "preordained" then that reduces us all to pawns on a chessboard with no true "free will" of our own. The illusion of predestination is that we have the ability to choose and yet in some ways our choices are already made for us. I would suggest that belief in predestination directly affects the believer’s ability to affect change within their life and perhaps robs them of the impetus to initiate that change. What is the point of making any choices if everything in our lives is already laid out? Why do anything at all?

In all fairness, reality is not so neat and tidy. Due to the nature of probabilities and probable reality any individual can do anything at any given time as no-thing is preordained. It is true that much of human behavior can be predicted given specific criteria and situations; however there is always the potential of the individual breaking away from "the mold" and acting in an unexpected way.

Over the years, for some reason, I keep coming back to what is called Chaos Theory. The idea that "an idea can change the world" fits Chaos Theory rather well, as there is no way to determine what that particular idea may be. I suppose one could say that it was "preordained" that that idea would emerge but again "predestination" removes the impetus for the idea itself to come out. If Tom did not come up with the idea, Dick or Harry would have based on the choices they made.

The way I see it, as I explained to Buttercup not too long ago is this. The idea of "predestination" is not wholly without basis. When we were non-physical we decided on specific things we wished to accomplish in our "next" life. Due to the nature of probabilities there is no telling if we will actually achieve those goals. The reason for this is similar to taking a list with you to the shopping mall. In some ways it is as if when you get to the shopping mall, you get caught up in some fascinating new shops that absorb your time. You spend all your time in those shops and then exhausted, go back home. Once you get home, you realize you did not get all the items on your "list". What you did not take into account was the random nature of the experience itself.

What I am trying to say is that your sojourn is not preordained or predetermined as one can only take intent with them into the realm of probabilities. To do otherwise, reduced the individual to an automaton that in fact has no real choice whatsoever and that flies in the face of supposed "free will". So what I mean is we come to this would with intent, but there is no guarantee that we will ever get around to doing what we came for again and I stress, due to the nature of living within the realm of probable reality. Probable reality IS governed by choices; however there are always a myriad of choices at each moment point of the experience and that is why nothing can truly be predicted with assured accuracy.

Of course, I could be wrong, but that is how it all appears to me.

[xexon]

There is but one destiny, but the diversions to it are many.


x

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

I understand what your saying Ymir, but I have to beg to differ. Even though it seems that "destiny" implies to many that your freewill is lost. Every single person is meant for something. Freewill is an illusion in the fact that anything can happen. You could make the decision to run and jump or walk causually down the street, but regardless your choice leads you into another room. That choice was'nt really made it was already there. IMHO we are just random balls of energy bouncing off each other in what we call reality. That choice changed your life, but it wasn't made. Was there a choice to whether or not you eat today. If you have food you eat or you die. If you don't you look for it because you will die. Certain chocies seem to be random, but they always have a purpose.

[maro]

the difficult part for me to explain , is how the concept of destiny in islam, doesn't contradict having a 100% free will and choice ,
that's why i used a link for it ,
but i will try to add a little more to make the picture more clear ,
when i read about the life of the prophet (PBUH). i can clearly see how he was doing 100% effort to reach a goal ,
and that he (PBUH) didn't sit calmly in his home ,telling himself , wether islam appears to people or not , it's God's destiny ,
instead , he struggled and suffered so much , to make this world a better place for us

islam teaches us is that this life is our single chance , in which we should do our best ,and that having free will and choice , we are going to be judged for these choices

but yet , after doing 100% effort , we can never control our lives 100% ,
there still a big part of it , which we have nothing to do about ,

we can't decide not to die , or not to get ill , or not to have an accident , or not to meet somone , at a certain time ...... , and many other issues that can steer our lives to a totally different direction

Once, there was an epidemic disease in the town , and the great companion of the prophet (OMAR IBN AL KHATAB) told some people to leave ,
so, one of those who have narrow understanding of "destiny " asked him : are we going to run away from God's destiny?
he said : yes , we are going to run away from god's destiny to God's destiny

[YmirGF]

I promise I won't be antagonistic this time around Maro. *smiles sweetly*
I really do hear what you are saying, but I beg to differ.

In my warped view of reality, the individual does in fact "choose" their time of dying. I don't mean this consciously in most cases, but most certainly in some cases, people do indeed choose death over life. Terminally ill patients quite often choose death over a life of agony. Granted it does take a bit of time for the body to get with the game plan, but nonetheless, it is so. Likewise I implicitly believe that people bring illness upon themselves through the various dis-eases and maladies. The reasons for accepting dis-ease are as varied as there are people to "get" those dis-eases and they are never thrust on the individual, but "accepted" on "unconscious" levels.

Likewise, I simply do not believe in so-called "accidents". All misadventure is introduced into the individual's path by their own volition and there are simply no exceptions to this "rule". Again. I do not believe in "chance" per se, but rather there are very deep "unconscious" communications between people that might seem to be on the surface to be "chance" meetings. Again, I don't believe in accidents in a positive or a negative sense. No-thing happens without a reason, even if that reason is "no reason".

Originally Posted by maro

one of those who have narrow understanding of "destiny " asked him : are we going to run away from God's destiny?
he said : yes , we are going to run away from god's destiny to God's destiny

Again, I do hear what you are saying, but this still seems very clearly to be a self-serving viewpoint. It simply muddies the whole concept to fit the needs of whoever is promoting said concept to the extent that it actually means very little in the long run (no pun intended)... but it does indeed sound "deep" and "meaningful". I suppose it just reminds me of politician's famous "non-statements"; they sound good, but when you think about it, the politician hasn't really said anything of note.