Messianic Jew versus Christian (Messiah, theist, Jewish, Christianity, Christians)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Djamila

When someone says they are a Messianic Jew, is it probably they mean they're from a Jewish ethnic/cultural background, but religiously Christian?

Yes, but they may or may not be Trinitarians, and many of them keep kosher, whereas Gentile Christians are not expected to do that.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by jewscout

"Messianic Judaism" as the term is commonly used today is someone who claims the jewish faith yet believes that Jesus, or Yehoshua, or whatever you want to call him is the Moshiach and that Paul is a prophet. while they may be jewish in some sort of ethnic way this does not always mean they are halachically jewish, and certainly if they believe this...stuff...they find themselves outside, theologically, of mainstream judaism.

I once "knew" a Jewish lady online, years ago. Her husband was on the same Religion conference. They were both Lubavitchers and it was a bit of a scandal, because she said she believed Jesus was not just a prophet, but also the Messiah, and clearly she did not any of the Trinitarian part of that.

She lived religiously as a very observant Jew, and some of the other Jewish users were after her about which beit din had said it was okay halachically that she held the beliefs she did.

It was a rather heated discussion to have to moderate, but was very educational.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by NoahideHiker

The ironic thing is that while messianics reject the rabbis and reject Jewish oral law most of their practices come straight from both.

It's rather like the sola scriptura Christians, who don't realize that their very scriptura is the result of...tradition.

Oh dear, here I am derailing yet another thread. Uh, sorry Djamila.

I'd be interested to read any comments about the Lubavitcher lady I mentioned in an earlier post, though. It's always struck me as an unusual sort of case.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Godlike

A Messianic Jew is surely awaiting the first coming of a divinely appointed Saviour of Israel (read: the world by extension). This Messiah is NOT one and the same with God and is not to be thought of as a god himself: though he do great works and provide a light for believers in dark times.

If memory serves me correct, what you speak of here is moshiach ben David. A political leader descended from King David, that will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. Then you have moshiach ben Yossef who acts as precursor to moshiach ben David. Neither is godlike or divine, but moshiach ben Yossef seems to be more of the Christian view of Christ then moshiach ben David.

Moshiach Ben Yossef
http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/moshiach_ben_yossef.php

Moshiach Ben David
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Initially, more of what we Christians see as Messiah (prophetically speaking) were held by early Judaism. There is more then enough evidence to indicate that it was reinterpreted by Jewish Rabbi Rashi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi

Scholars such as Raphael Patai show this in some of his works if anyone is interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Patai

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Victor

If memory serves me correct, what you speak of here is moshiach ben David. A political leader descended from King David, that will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. Then you have moshiach ben Yossef who acts as precursor to moshiach ben David. Neither is godlike or divine, but moshiach ben Yossef seems to be more of the Christian view of Christ then moshiach ben David.

Moshiach Ben Yossef
http://www.moshiach.com/discover/tutorials/moshiach_ben_yossef.php

Moshiach Ben David
http://www.jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

Initially, more of what we Christians see as Messiah (prophetically speaking) were held by early Judaism. There is more then enough evidence to indicate that it was reinterpreted by Jewish Rabbi Rashi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi

Scholars such as Raphael Patai show this in some of his works if anyone is interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raphael_Patai

I have Patai's work "The Messiah Texts" and would recommend it to anyone interested in the subject. I've found it illuminating over the years.

And yes, I concur Victor, the figure of moshiach ben Yosef seems closer to Jesus.

moshiach ben David seems to have more similarities with Christian texts' descriptions of the Return.

[Ody]

Originally Posted by Djamila

Do you, as a Jew, consider Messianic Jews to be closer to Jews or Christians?

By blood Jews, but they reject HaShem and become Christians...

[Ody]

Originally Posted by Djamila

When someone says they are a Messianic Jew, is it probably they mean they're from a Jewish ethnic/cultural background, but religiously Christian?

Indeed.

[Ody]

'Messianic Judaism' is Protestant Christianity under a Hebrew mask.