Does Religion really matter? (beliefs, hell, mission, preaching, church)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by KPereira

Catholics believe that we will get into Heaven by doing good things. But that isn't true. If I kill a man, but help 1000 old ladies across the street, but feel no remorse...will I be pardonned? No, but if I feel remorse for it and truly want forgiveness and do things to try and correct my wrong, I will be forgiven by God. Christians focus on getting into Heaven, but that isn't the important thing.

I'm not even a Catholic, but I can't imagine very many Catholics on RF going along with how you've explained that.

Calling Victor, Athanasius!

[koan]

I don't like religions. Even though I am a Buddhist, Buddhism isn't really a religion. Unfortunately though, many buddhist and others consider it so.

[standing_on_one_foot]

I think people who blame religions tend to be missing the point. They're not something seperate. It's all humanity in the end. Guess what? Humans would still do good things and bad things without religion. We'd still believe things too, if it comes to that, and we'd still divide the world up into Us and Them...

I think religion just exists. It's a very powerful way to drive people to action. What people do with it after that is what makes it good or bad, but the main point is that it's the people, not the religion. Religion just tends to focus what's there.

This is not to say, of course, that there are not clearly beneficial and harmful beliefs. But lumping them all together seems a little unfair.

[KPereira]

Originally Posted by Hema

Who said that Hindus don't like Buddhists? According to the Rig Veda, Truth is one but is called by many names. Similarly, I believe that God is one but he/she is called by different names. All religions lead to one God just as many rivers lead to one ocean. A true Hindu does not look down on others.

Ahhhh! It is a generalization! Why is everyone focusing on a generalization used as an example, when its not even the main point of it all? What I am trying to convey by saying all that is IN GENERAL!!!! (I have no clue how to stress this further) religions do tend to disagree with each other, naturally. If you are a Hindu and firmly believe in Hinduism and a Buddhist comes by and says 'Convert to Buddhism'. You aren't going to say 'Oh sure, why not'. You will defend your views and challenge the Buddhist's views and the Buddhist will do the same for his/her beliefs and an argument is going to erupt over which religion is the right one. Do you think I mean all this hatred is on the scale of the Holocaust? Not at all. It COULD be on that level or it could be something as small as a general disagreement. Protestant and Catholics for example. Protestants believe that pretty much everything Catholic is wrong. But do Protestants necessarily HATE Catholics? No...not at all. Hindus, I'm sure, disagree with Buddhists. But do Hindus HATE Buddhists? No...not at all. Do they necessarily even look down on Buddhists? No. If the Rig Veda does state that all religions lead one God as many rivers lead into an ocean, then why would anyone be Hindu? It wouldn't matter at all. Now, this is getting off-topic, so I'll answer to the next rebuke.

I'm not even a Catholic, but I can't imagine very many Catholics on RF going along with how you've explained that.

Calling Victor, Athanasius!

I'll try and explain better. What I am trying to say that Catholics believe that by doing rights, we can erase our wrongs. We obtain forgiveness from God for our sins for doing good things. I used an example...'If I kill a man, but help 1000 old ladies across the street, but feel no remorse...will I be pardonned? No, but if I feel remorse for it and truly want forgiveness and do things to try and correct my wrong, I will be forgiven by God.' Does the fact that I help all those old ladies across the street change the fact that I killed a man? I believe that you should be forgiven if you feel remorse for what you did. On top of everything in the example...I am only helping the old ladies to obtain forgiveness from God. I am only helping them for my own benefit. I am not even helping them because I WANT TO help them. That is just selfish.

However, if I help those old ladies because we are supposed to love everyone unconditionally, I would be forgiven. I wouldn't be doing it for my own benefit and although it still does not erase the wrong that I originally did, I would still receive forgiveness from God. Forgiveness from God or anybody shouldn't be as easy going to a mass and partaking in General Absolution (as is Catholic custom). Where the priest says a few words and everyone in the room is forgiven of their sins. Why does everyone in that room deserve forgiveness? Just because they went to mass that one day? So, if I go to General Absolution and walk out of the Church and get hit by a car, I will die without sin (if you want to be technical, as I'm sure someone will post something like 'Well you still committed all those sins', dieing with all my sins forgiven?) That is asinine, in my opinion. Why should I receive forgiveness for showing up to a mass and feeling no remorse for every single little thing I have done?

While I understand and tend to agree with what you are trying to convey for the most part, I have to ask about this last statement of yours. How can you say all that you say and then say this bit about being a Christian and being closer to God? Can't you see the hypocrisy of this statement? You say that religion isn't necessary, that the message of all is the same, then go on to say that being a Christian gives you the benefit of "more directly" worshipping Him?

Hmmm...I see what you are trying to get at, but let me give you an example to clarify myself better.

Say there is this really loving mother out there. She is loved by everyone she knows...her friends, her family, distant family, etc, etc. Who will the mother love more: her nephew or her son? Yes, the mother does love both, but she will obviously love her own son more than her nephew. Understand now?

If you still don't, I'll explain even more. The mother is represented as God. The son and the nephew represent different religions. The mother (God) loves her own son more than her nephew, not to say, though, that she doesnt love the nephew. So, there would be benefits to being her son, as you are more directly related to her. Get it?

well in my religion, it isnt what religion you are, but how you are. good people with a pure heart go to the elysian fields, and the most horrible go to tartarus...of course these are the two extremes, there are places in-between for average people and such like "the void" which is my personal name for it, you can compare it to the catholic limbo, its a place with no honor, no emotions, stuff like that. but its not an entirely bad place to be. that is the way i see it and i keep it to myself, all the while respecting everybody else's beliefs with the utmost compassion. then the certain aspect of my religion is a study and use of death and its energies. contacting the dearly departed, etc. thereby preparing us for the afterlife.

Seems like quite a religion . I don't agree with the contacting the departed part though. I think we should leave them in peace. I agree with the gist of it, though.



It seems to me like most people are missing the message. The religion not mattering is only a side point to consider (although it is the title of this thread...I couldn't think of anything else ). Religion does have benefits. Many benefits. But the point I am trying oh so very hard to get across is that the hatred between those groups that do hate each other to the point of killing each other would be eliminated if we all loved each other. The main point is to love. Love, not for our own benefit, but for the benefit of others. I understand it is a tad hypocritical to say that religion does not matter and then say that there are benefits to being a Christian. But that is the whole belief. That is MY BELIEF. You may be a Hindu and say that your religion is the right one. That is YOUR BELIEF. I am not telling people to convert to Christianity just because you read this thread on RF. Nor am I saying that the world is nothing but hatred.

However, I am saying that people should CONSIDER Christianity and that there is hatred in the world that could be eliminated if we loved each other. Anyone who thinks the world is nothing but flowers and ponies is ignorant. There IS hatred in the world and just because I am bringing up the subject of it, does not make me negative.

Does a doctor treat you if you are well? No, the doctor only treats people who are sick. But, as the doctor is pointing out what is wrong with you, does that make him/her a negative person?

The Bible tells us how to live our lives in accordance with the will of God. Does the Bible only say 'You should be like this...' 'You should be like that...'. No, it also says 'People who do not live for God will...' 'Adulterers will suffer the fate of...' 'Those who insult the Holy Spirit will...'

It focuses both on positive and negative aspects. It makes no sense to just focus only on the negative, just as it makes to sense to focus only on the positive. We must fairly evaluate the world and THEN we can begin to solve the problems in it.

Yes, there are miracles everyday. Babies being born, people recovering from illnesses, someone winning the lottery, etc etc. That list is endless. However, you can't ignore that there are genocides out there, poverty, rape, exploitation, etc etc. That list is endless also. If everyone loved each other unconditionally, would there be genocides? Poverty? Rape? Exploitation? No, there wouldn't. So to say that I am negative while trying to preach a message of love is foolish or even to say I am negative while merely pointing out what is wrong and stating how that could be solved. The solution is obvious, but the process is difficult.

I think people who blame religions tend to be missing the point. They're not something seperate. It's all humanity in the end. Guess what? Humans would still do good things and bad things without religion. We'd still believe things too, if it comes to that, and we'd still divide the world up into Us and Them...

I am NOT blaming religion for the problems in the world and I do realize that people not following their religions is the main cause of the problem. However, what about the athiests? Billions of people are athiest. China alone is enough to make you sad at the number of people who are out there without a God in their life to help them, to guide them, to give them hope. What are those athiests going to do? They have no restrictions on them. What are they going to follow? What about people with weak faith who only call themselves apart of a religion because they were baptized as a baby and are too lazy to go to Church or to even read up on their own religion?

I am not saying that we should all believe the exact same thing, although that probably would be helpful. I am saying that we should love and respect others regardless of their religion. Regardless of what they believe. I have no clue how I can explain any clearer than that.

[YmirGF]

I have only used religious and philosophical texts as gauges, really. It is more a case of, "Wow. Other folks have seen this too. Cool beans!"
Blaming religions is a bit of a mood thing with me. I tend to point my grubby little mitts at interpretation of rather than the central figures found therein.

The Achilles heel of religion is that once the central figure exists from the play, the followers have a tendency to go to "hell in a hand basket" by injecting their own interpretations, for whatever reasons. I dunno, it's like they all get watered down and as a result they tend to lose their original flavoring.

I think it is this watering down that propels new religions into being to meet the needs of people who do not entirely agree with their ancestors. I don't expect this will ever change.

[Random]

No, religion does not matter: nothing really matters. It 's all empty, pointless and futile: you can only hope for a painless death. You might get it, you might not, but either way it will be meaningless and deviod of content, like existence itself. Everything ends, and that end is final and absolute.

Feel much better now, having got that off my chest. Big fan of Nihilism, me.

PS. I don't really believe the above, but i couldn't think of another sensible answer.

[Draka]

Hmmm...I see what you are trying to get at, but let me give you an example to clarify myself better.

Say there is this really loving mother out there. She is loved by everyone she knows...her friends, her family, distant family, etc, etc. Who will the mother love more: her nephew or her son? Yes, the mother does love both, but she will obviously love her own son more than her nephew. Understand now?

If you still don't, I'll explain even more. The mother is represented as God. The son and the nephew represent different religions. The mother (God) loves her own son more than her nephew, not to say, though, that she doesnt love the nephew. So, there would be benefits to being her son, as you are more directly related to her. Get it?

The thing is,every religion can look at it like that. By that definition, you are the nephew and I the daughter of the Goddess. Which is exactly one of the reasons why some people of differing religions do not get along. The "I'm right and you're wrong, God/dess loves me more" line of thought.

The thing is, it's not as much the fault of religion, as it is the conceit of the people following religions. If you look at religions as just many different ways of acknowledging and honoring something greater than ourselves and that none could have it entirely "right", then you see it is not religion that is the problem. It is instead, the narrow minded people so bent on being right that their religion must be right as well. Unfortunately, there are religions in this world that are very appealing to that line of thought and attract more than their share of these people. Hence religious animosity.

[KPereira]

Originally Posted by Draka

The thing is,every religion can look at it like that. By that definition, you are the nephew and I the daughter of the Goddess. Which is exactly one of the reasons why some people of differing religions do not get along. The "I'm right and you're wrong, God/dess loves me more" line of thought.

The thing is, it's not as much the fault of religion, as it is the conceit of the people following religions. If you look at religions as just many different ways of acknowledging and honoring something greater than ourselves and that none could have it entirely "right", then you see it is not religion that is the problem. It is instead, the narrow minded people so bent on being right that their religion must be right as well. Unfortunately, there are religions in this world that are very appealing to that line of thought and attract more than their share of these people. Hence religious animosity.

Yes, religion itself doesn't cause regular crimes...murder, theft...all that. That alone is just people not following their religion. But certain religions TEACH their followers that their religion is right and everyone wrong. And then it gets to a point where they are not even willing to read up on other religions to see what they are about.

My friend Melanie was like that when we first met. She's a Baptist and I'm a Catholic. At first, we had arguments ALL THE TIME. I was getting angry that she was talking down about Catholicism when she had no proof that Baptism is the 'right' religion. And then, when I tried to explain to her about Catholicism or compare Christianity to other religions...she didn't even want to hear about it because she 'KNEW that Baptism is 'right''. Basically, for the longest time, it seemed as if she was trying to convert me .

Before this, I was never a strong Catholic. But the message that Catholicism is right was drilled into my head those times when I did go to church. And if it wasn't the church that drilled it into your head, it was your parents...or even worse...Catholic schools who INSIST that all other religions are wrong. Naturally that's going to happen. If you believe something is right, you aren't going to accept other things. If you learn that 2+2=4 and I come along and tell you that 2+2=56, you are going to defend why you think 2+2=4 and try to disprove why 2+2=56. When it comes to religious discrimination, it IS the Churches fault, as they are the ones filling your head with the wrong message. Those extreme Muslim clerics...they are at their mosques, preaching hate to a congregation 'Allah wants death to all Americans'. So those people are now, more than likely, going to become suicide bombers or something.

But, everyone is missing the whole point of this. By saying 'Does Religion really matter?' I am not saying 'it doesn't matter whether you believe in a God or don't'...I am saying it doesn't matter because if we love each other, there would not be the hatred there is in the world today. No, I am not blaming religions for the pettiest of crimes. I am blaming religion for sparking conflict between other religions. Religious leaders who INSIST that their religion is right and too narrow-minded to at least respect another religion.

Look at Pope Benedict XVI. Goes to Turkey and most people there disliked him because of that speech he made awhile ago claiming that Islam is a violent religion. So, in order to gain their favor, prays like a Muslim and does all that stuff. Tell me. If all those Turks were not displeased at Benedict, do you think he still would have gone to all those Muslim holy places? No, the answer is no. They weren't even originally planned on his visit. The Vatican calls it 'a gesture of goodwill'. I call it 'politics'.

It is when we have religious leaders like that, that the whole religion goes insane. A work of fiction like the Da Vinci Code has the power to make the Vatican denounce it and make so many statements to try and disprove it... A WORK OF FICTION! Is that not a little redundant? Then priests are going out there TRYING to convince others that the Da Vinci Code is all lies. Can I re-iterate...A WORK OF FICTION! If half the stuff in that book were true, there would be very few Catholics left. But there are still about 1.2 billion. Is the Vatican that narrow-minded that they can't accept a WORK OF FICTION? If people believe in the Da Vinci Code, let them. They have the right to do that.

But what the Da Vinci Code really caused was many Catholics to start interpreting things even more. 'Well maybe this story means...' 'What if this refers to something else...'. Many Catholics started to second-guess their own religion. If the Vatican hadn't made such a big fuss over a book, maybe so many people would not have believed the Da Vinci Code is true. Why denounce a work of fiction...because it contradicts the Catholic faith? Then why not denounce religious documents of other religions? They contradict the Catholic faith. Why doesn't the Vatican say 'The Koran is all lies...nobody even look at the Koran'? Because even more Muslims would be ****** off at the Vatican and the Pope would have to make more 'goodwill gestures'. Like I said, all politics. Something that could be avoided if we all just accepted each other.

But, we wouldnt even have this problem in the first place if we were more accepting of other peoples religions. Going back to my friend Melanie. I told her 'You don't have to believe in Catholicism, but can you at least accept that I'm a Catholic, just as I accept that you are a Baptist?' She couldn't even do that. This is where the love part comes in. People way too caught up with trying to disprove that whatever religion you are doesn't matter, that they are missing the whole point. To love!

NOBODY can prove that their religion is right. It is just what they believe...what makes sense to them. But whatever you think is right, you can't force on other people because they have a right to choose that for themselves. Accept others and you will be accepted. Love others and you will be loved.

There is the old Catholic Portuguese lady I know. She goes to Church like pretty much everyday for most of the masses. What would be your opinion of her? 'Oh, she must be a really devout Catholic'. But, then she turns around, starts insulting others, talking behind their back, the old woman swears like a sailor. Is this Christ-like? Is this loving...accepting? Not at all! Someone who has never seen a Church, but loves everyone unconditionally will sooner enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

My mother. She prays all the time. Blesses the house with Holy Water occasionally. Puts the palms from Palm Sunday under all the mattresses. You should see my house. Can't walk 6 feet without seeing SOMETHING Catholic. But, my mom also talks behind peoples backs, swears, she occasionally rants about Natives. Yes, she is a bit of a racist. Is this Christ-like? Loving and accepting? An athiest who lives a fruitful life will sooner enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I know what is going to come up now. 'Dude, you just said an old lady and your mom are going to Hell'. No...that is for God to decide. They still have time to change their ways, which I hope they do. It is sad to see people so devout, but so sinful. Yes, everyone sins, but its the desire to have your sins forgiven...the remorse you feel that gets you into Heaven, not following religious traditions.