Do you believe we all have souls? (exodus, Buddhism, eternal)

[anders]

It sure is enough for me.

Remember the words of Tom Lehrer:

Life is like a sewer
What you get out of it
Depends on what you put into it

[Runt]

...sheesh. Why isn't the idea that laws govern you're every action, that there is no purpose to life but what we give it, and that all beauty and good is subjective, not enough for you people?... or have I answered my own question?

I believe in all these things. But I believe there is more to our world than mere science can attest to. Science is based off of what can be measured with our senses and the instruments we make to measure what we CANNOT sense alone. Therefore, in my opinion science is limited to human observation, reason, and creation, and as such is flawed.

*shrugs* But perhaps I'm a "spiritual" atheist? :P

[(Q)]

Runt

If science can detect that which is based in nature and that which only affects us on the physical plane, how is it possible for you to believe there is anything beyond that?

If something cannot be detected or observed and cannot affect you in any way, then it simply does not exist.

[Runt]

I'm thinking more along the lines of things that DO affect us, but are not acknowledged by science.

For example... science knows that everything is energy... EVERYTHING. Science can look at the behavior of little clumps of this energy (subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, biological organisms, communities of biological organisms, weather, etc), and it can determine the nature of each of these little clumps... but what about the vast totality of energy? ALL OF IT.

Some scientific theory (string?) dictates that all energy interacts with other energy, indicating that it is all interconnected in some vast, incomprehensible way. Therefore, just as the energy of every atom, every molecule, every system of of a single biological organism is basically an ARRANGEMENT of energy with a specific nature when it combines to form a whole (combining to form "me" or "you")... so all the nature of the universe, ALL OF IT, when viewed in its totality, forms...something. Something vast, incomprehensible, unknowable...something that CANNOT be viewed by science simply because it is so big.

I call this Something, whatever it is, "God". I know nothing about this God. I cannot try to define what it IS beyond saying that it is vast, incomprehensible, and unknowable, but using my meager human logic I can try to define what it ISN'T.

It does not have a personality... this is something that biological organisms have. Therefore, it is not loving, caring, angry, wrathful, or any other human/biological emotion. The best I can perhaps say, using these imperfect human emotions to describe something that is inhuman and has no emotions, is that this Something is "apathetic" or "uncaring".

It is not finite... how can something that is EVERYTHING, all energy, be finite when energy cannot be created or destroyed?

It is not male or female, but encompasses both (because It, being the totality of energy, encompasses the biological world, which has gender).

Does this view make me an atheist? If so, then "atheist" just took on a new definition for me...

[(Q)]

Runt

I think I see the problem here. What you need is a couple of courses in physics - everything you consider 'incomprehensible' will become crystal clear.

The various forms of energy are well understood, there is no vast mystery about it at all.

I would be happy to answer any questions you have on the subject.

Perhaps you can start a new thread and we'll continue there rather than derail this thread further.

[Master Vigil]

runt, that would make you more of an agnostic, not an atheist.

[Master Vigil]

and Q, just as saint anselm said... one does not believe in god after the understanding of god, one understands god after the belief in god. meaning, just because science cannot detect it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, for thousands of people all over the world are affected by "god" every day. and sure science can detect that which is based in nature, but what is nature based in. we cannot of infinite regress. it has to stop somewhere.

[Runt]

Q- Aye, a good working knowledge of physics would help...but I don't think we can ever fully understand the nature of the totality of energy. Different forms of energy, yes. The way these different forms behave, yes. The way these different forms interact with one another (chemistry, physics, bio-chemestry, biology, cellular biology, etc), yes. But I do not think that any system of science can look at ALL energy at the same time, watch the different forms of energy within it interact as a whole, and know the nature of this Thing...

I've known a few "high level" scientists in my life. One, a professor of cellular biology, told me that he was an atheist through his entire childhood, teenage, and young adult life. Then he started really getting into the sciences, and started suspecting that science barely defines the "bigger picture". He is now agnostic... he discovered spirituality when studying cellular biology...

[Master Vigil]

my sister got her bachelors in microbiology, and after she started getting deep into it, she figured out how great "god" is. and how smart "god" must of been to cause all of what has happened in the universe. science can only take you so far.

[(Q)]

Vigil

one does not believe in god after the understanding of god, one understands god after the belief in god.

This is circular reasoning and is based on the premise that gods exist.

meaning, just because science cannot detect it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist

If it exists in nature, it can be detected by science. If it doesn’t exist in nature, it cannot be detected; hence it cannot exist in nature and therefore cannot affect us in any way.

thousands of people all over the world are affected by "god" every day

Or, more accurately, they are affected by their belief in god. If god existed in nature, we would all be affected and faith is no more. That is the entire concept of ‘faith’ in gods.

and sure science can detect that which is based in nature, but what is nature based in

Reality.

science can only take you so far.

Science is about learning and understanding how everything works. If we eventually understand how everything works, it might lead us to understand why everything works. Until then, we can only speculate why they work the way they do. Science will take you as far as you want to go. A belief will take you only as far as your own imagination.



Runt

But I do not think that any system of science can look at ALL energy at the same time, watch the different forms of energy within it interact as a whole, and know the nature of this Thing...

I don’t understand what you’re getting at. Why would we need to look at ALL energy at the same time? Energy does not interact as a whole or as a “Thing.”

He is now agnostic... he discovered spirituality when studying cellular biology...

That’s nice. But you will find that the majority, very large majority of people that study the hard sciences inevitably realize that the laws of nature govern everything.

And as I stated, if you took the time to understand energy, all your questions would be answered.