He is Messenger or God?

[InvestigateTruth]

In Baha’i view, God can never incarnate as a human. God created Messengers who perfectly reflect His attributes and Will. This does not mean the Messengers are God, but they are His Manifestations.
Here are consistent sayings of Messengers claiming their union with God:

With regards to Muhammad:

Recorded saying of Muhammad: "I am He and He is I, save that I am I, and He is He"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahl_al-Tustari

Another quote is when Muhammad threw shafts, Quran says: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine!” Qur’án 8:17.

Also “In truth, they who plighted fealty unto thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.” Qur’án 48:10.

With regards to Jesus:

Jesus said: “I and father are one”
“Whoever has seen Me, has seen the Father”

With regards to Baha’u’llah:

“When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” Baha’u’llah


“Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For ... through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.... And were any of them to voice the utterance, “I am the Messenger of God,” He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth.... Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence.... And were they to say, “We are the Servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain....” Baha’u’llah

[InvestigateTruth]

"The Manifestation of God is a concept in the Bahá'í Faith that refers to what are commonly called prophets. The Manifestations of God are a series of personages who reflect the attributes of the divine into the human world for the progress and advancement of human morals and civilization.[1] In the Baha'i Faith, it is believed that the Manifestations of God are the only channel for humanity to know about God, and that they act as perfect mirrors reflecting the attributes of God into the physical world.[2]Bahá'í teachings hold that the motive force in all human development is due to the coming of the Manifestations of God.[3] The Manifestations of God are directly linked with the Bahá'í concept of progressive revelation."

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[InvestigateTruth]

"Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet." Exodus 7:1

[InvestigateTruth]

"He will speak to the people for you, and it will be as if he were your mouth and as if you were God to him." Exodus 4:16

[Gaura Priya]

I actually do not believe in Progressive Revelation or the concept of the Manifestations of God. I do believe in Progressive Inspiration, and that divine and lofty powers have been given to humankind to develop into eternity (essentially perennial philosophy).

What I do believe is that anyone who has given a message and contributed to the foundations of humankind are 'prophets.' They, to me, are imbued with the powers of reason, eloquence, and a sense social justice, and are as much as messengers as those described in traditional religions.

[InvestigateTruth]

Originally Posted by Gaura Priya

I actually do not believe in Progressive Revelation or the concept of the Manifestations of God. I do believe in Progressive Inspiration, and that divine and lofty powers have been given to humankind to develop into eternity (essentially perennial philosophy).

What I do believe is that anyone who has given a message and contributed to the foundations of humankind are 'prophets.' They, to me, are imbued with the powers of reason, eloquence, and a sense social justice, and are as much as messengers as those described in traditional religions.

If you don't believe in Manifestations of God, then how do you interprete, when Jesus said, "I and Father are one"?

[Gaura Priya]

Originally Posted by InvestigateTruth

If you don't believe in Manifestations of God, then how do you interprete, when Jesus said, "I and Father are one"?

Easy. With all religious Scriptures, I primarily put importance in their allegorical and metaphorical nature over any literal understanding underlying the texts. God Himself is beyond all comprehension, let alone with the inspiration that comes from every culture and every age in attempts to describe His lofty countenance.

"None knoweth its explanation save God."
-- al-Imran (the Family of Imran) 3:7, Qur'an


"Of many thousand mortals, one, perchance,
Striveth for Truth; and of those few that strive —
Nay, and rise high — one only — here and there —
Knoweth Me, as I am, the very Truth."
-- Bhagavad-Gita 7:7


"For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
-- 2 Corinthians 3:6


"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books."

-- paragraph 53, Kitab-i-Iqan

When Jesus said, "I and the Father are One," Jesus was speaking of being in communion with Jehovah, even as we are also in communion with the Day-Spring of Glory, God Himself. Thus if this verse were to be ascribed a sense of Divinity and Majesty to his personality, it would be one where we all are also capable of becoming.


"That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one."
-- John 17:21-23


Of course, this is my own limited understanding! But I just prefer not to make a distinction between the sacred and the secular: we can find divine inspiration through spiritual narratives of the world, as well as in nature, in ourselves, and in each other, as well as one's own rationality, conscience and reason.

[arthra]

Gaurya wrote;

I primarily put importance in their allegorical and metaphorical nature over any literal understanding underlying the texts. God Himself is beyond all comprehension, let alone with the inspiration that comes from every culture and every age in attempts to describe His lofty countenance.

I don't think this differs a lot from my view..We usually don't take simply a literal interpretation but rather a spiritual one..

"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books."

~ Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 49

The Manifestation for us has a station that is more primary and exalted than the average "Joe" however..

Gaurya wrote:

"...divine inspiration through spiritual narratives of the world, as well as in nature, in ourselves, and in each other, as well as one's own rationality, conscience and reason..."

I would agree that inspiration can be present in us however when we claim Divine Inspiration that's another matter... The sun (inspiration) shines on the just and the unjust but not all rocks are diamonds..

[Gaura Priya]

Originally Posted by arthra

The Manifestation for us has a station that is more primary and exalted than the average "Joe" however..

And that's where I disagree respectfully. I think that every person's ultimate spiritual authority lies in one's own self. If God is all-loving and impartial, to me personally it just would not make sense or even do Her justice to elevate the station of one personage over another. Did not Baha'u'llah himself say to regard man as a mine rich in gems of inestimable value, and that man himself is the supreme talisman?

I personally think that all human beings can contribute to the interdependent web of ideas and spiritual transformation! Everyone can be a source of love, unity, peace, concord, and kindness, and thus everyone can be an evangelist of virtue and goodwill.


"Have courage to use your own reason."
-- Immanuel Kant


"O Ananda, be ye lamps unto yourselves. Rely on yourselves, and do not rely on external help. Hold fast to the truth as a lamp. Seek salvation alone in the truth. Look not for assistance to any one besides yourselves.

"Those who [] shall be lamps unto themselves, relying upon themselves only and not relying upon any external help, but holding fast to the truth as their lamp, and seeking their salvation in the truth alone, and shall not look for assistance to any one besides themselves, it is they, [] who shall reach the very topmost height! But they must be anxious to learn."

-- Buddha

[kjw47]

Originally Posted by Gaura Priya

Easy. With all religious Scriptures, I primarily put importance in their allegorical and metaphorical nature over any literal understanding underlying the texts. God Himself is beyond all comprehension, let alone with the inspiration that comes from every culture and every age in attempts to describe His lofty countenance.

"None knoweth its explanation save God."
-- al-Imran (the Family of Imran) 3:7, Qur'an

"Of many thousand mortals, one, perchance,
Striveth for Truth; and of those few that strive —
Nay, and rise high — one only — here and there —
Knoweth Me, as I am, the very Truth."
-- Bhagavad-Gita 7:7

"For the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
-- 2 Corinthians 3:6

"Know verily that the purpose underlying all these symbolic terms and abstruse allusions, which emanate from the Revealers of God’s holy Cause, hath been to test and prove the peoples of the world; that thereby the earth of the pure and illuminated hearts may be known from the perishable and barren soil. From time immemorial such hath been the way of God amidst His creatures, and to this testify the records of the sacred books."

-- paragraph 53, Kitab-i-Iqan

When Jesus said, "I and the Father are One," Jesus was speaking of being in communion with Jehovah, even as we are also in communion with the Day-Spring of Glory, God Himself. Thus if this verse were to be ascribed a sense of Divinity and Majesty to his personality, it would be one where we all are also capable of becoming.

"That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in us...that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one."


-- John 17:21-23

Of course, this is my own limited understanding! But I just prefer not to make a distinction between the sacred and the secular: we can find divine inspiration through spiritual narratives of the world, as well as in nature, in ourselves, and in each other, as well as one's own rationality, conscience and reason.

I agree, when Jesus said i and the Father are one--he was referring to purpose not being,afterall he also said --The Father is greater than i-- one cannot be greater than itself-- one cannot sit at its own right hand. And it also went on to say that we all would become one with them--in purpose.
Jesus always pointed his followers to his God and Father,Jesus always did the Fathers will.
Also we find at 1 cor 15:24-28--Jesus will become a subject to his God and Father after he hands back the kingdom( kingship) after his millenial reign as Gods appointed king--- one that is equal,or one in the same as some think, cannot be in subjection--proving there is no equality. Only created beings are in subjection.