"And I have come confirming that which was before me..." [3:50]

[Gharib]

In a thread that I have been discussing something with Caladan, it was mentioned that the Qur'an simply copied the previous scriptures, mainly that of the Jews.

So I brought up the verses in the Qur'an which say that the Qur'an confirms to the people, (Jews, Christians and everyone else) the truth contained in the previous scripture and has not copied them. I stated that the Qur'an is a continuum of the laws of God which explains the similarities.

And if indeed what those verses say is true then it would be expected that the Qur'an elaborates on the points mentioned in the Bible and Torah so as to convince the Jews and Christians of being truly from God. It would be logical to say that regarding the stories and concepts which it has 'copied' it should either have the same amount of information or less if it is a copy.

However if it isn't a copy then it should contain more information than the previous scriptures regarding some stories and concepts mentioned in the previous books

Based on that information, this thread is not about "proving" that the Qur'an is true and that the Jews and Christians should convert if what the Qur'an says is true.

What I'd like is to actually compare the similarities of the three scriptures and see if what the Qur'an claims about confirming the truth contained in the previous scriptures is true. I just want a civilized discussion and a show of respect for the views of others and their respective religions.

If you nodded yes to the above, I'd like to begin with the following:

All three faiths post the story of Abraham. I want to see only verses from your scriptures and not your own words elaborating on the story or the elaboration of scholars, I will accept sayings of the Prophets, such as what Moses, Jesus and Muhammed have been quoted as saying regarding their grandfather Abraham.

[InformedIgnorance]

I would however make the observation of the belief within Islam that earlier scriptures have become corrupted; so while there may be many references to such events, it may also include discrepancies with the intention that they be used in lieu of the 'corrupted' accounts. In this way, retelling of similar events may serve to elaborate as you suggest eselam, however one of the other major reasons may well be to clarify and to correct.

So from an Islamic perspective, differences between the Islamic account and other accounts, can be considered as being correction of something incorrect, clarification of something unclear or an expansion on something that is less developed in previous accounts.

[Gharib]

Originally Posted by InformedIgnorance

I would however make the observation of the belief within Islam that earlier scriptures have become corrupted; so while there may be many references to such events, it may also include discrepancies with the intention that they be used in lieu of the 'corrupted' accounts. In this way, retelling of similar events may serve to elaborate as you suggest eselam, however one of the other major reasons may well be to clarify and to correct.

So from an Islamic perspective, differences between the Islamic account and other accounts, can be considered as being correction of something incorrect, clarification of something unclear or an expansion on something that is less developed in previous accounts.

That is a very interesting point that you make, I guess I should explain the Islamic belief of the previous scriptures having been altered.

The link below explains this matter quite nice, but to tell you a brief Islamic belief on this issue, scholars say that anything in the previous scriptures which contradicts the Qur'an is what has been altered. However, that is not to say that they didn't make changes which when compared now, they will be similar among at least 2 scriptures which is exactly what you are saying.

However, we will actually come to one such example as the former, and that's when I will ask the Christians to quote the story of Jesus, his birth and life etc. The Qur'an and Bible differ immensely on this matter.

Where Are the Original Torah and Gospel? - Qur'an & Scriptures - counsels - OnIslam.net

[Pegg]

Originally Posted by eselam

If you nodded yes to the above, I'd like to begin with the following:

All three faiths post the story of Abraham. I want to see only verses from your scriptures and not your own words elaborating on the story or the elaboration of scholars, I will accept sayings of the Prophets, such as what Moses, Jesus and Muhammed have been quoted as saying regarding their grandfather Abraham.

You can read Genesis chapter 12 through to chapter 23Vs11 for the story of Abrahams entire life. I wont post everything but just a few passages.

Genesis 11:10 This is the history of Shem. Shem was a hundred years old when he became father to Ar·pach′shad, he became father to...She′lah.... E′ber... Pe′leg...Re′u....Na′hor....Te′rah lived on for seventy years, after which he became father to A′bram, Na′hor and Ha′ran.

Joshua 24:“This is what Jehovah the God of Israel has said, ‘It was on the other side of the River that YOUR forefathers dwelt a long time ago, Te′rah the father of Abraham and the father of Na′hor, and they used to serve other gods.
3 “‘In time I took YOUR forefather Abraham from the other side of the River and had him walk through all the land of Ca′naan and made his seed many.

Genesis 12:4 At that A′bram went just as Jehovah had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And A′bram was seventy-five years old when he went out from Ha′ran. 5 So A′bram took Sar′ai his wife and Lot the son of his brother and all the goods that they had accumulated and the souls whom they had acquired in Ha′ran, and they got on their way out to go to the land of Ca′naan. Finally they came to the land of Ca′naan. 6 And A′bram went on through the land as far as the site of She′chem, near the big trees of Mo′reh; and at that time the Ca′naan·ite was in the land. 7 Jehovah now appeared to A′bram and said: “To your seed I am going to give this land.”

Genesis 17:1 When A′bram got to be ninety-nine years old, then Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless. 2 And I will give my covenant between me and you, that I may multiply you very, very much.


Genesis 17;15 And God went on to say to Abraham: “As for Sar′ai your wife, you must not call her name Sar′ai, because Sarah is her name. 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son from her; and I will bless her and she shall become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” 17 At this Abraham fell upon his face and began to laugh and to say in his heart: “Will a man a hundred years old have a child born, and will Sarah, yes, will a woman ninety years old give birth?”


Genesis 18:1 Afterward Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mam′re, while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent about the heat of the day. 2 When he raised his eyes, then he looked and there three men were standing some distance from him. When he caught sight of them he began running to meet them from the entrance of the tent and proceeded to bow down to the earth. 3 Then he said: “Jehovah, if, now, I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant

Genesis 21:1 And Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah just as he had said, and Jehovah now did to Sarah just as he had spoken. 2 And Sarah became pregnant and then bore a son to Abraham in his old age at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him. 3 Accordingly Abraham called the name of his son who had been born to him, whom Sarah had borne to him, Isaac

Genesis 21:8 Now the child kept growing and came to be weaned; and Abraham then prepared a big feast on the day of Isaac’s being weaned. 9 And Sarah kept noticing the son of Ha′gar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, poking fun. 10 So she began to say to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir with my son, with Isaac!” 11 But the thing proved to be very displeasing to Abraham as regards his son. 12 Then God said to Abraham: “Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be.


Genesis 25:5 Later on Abraham gave everything he had to Isaac, 6 but to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he was still alive, eastward, to the land of the East. 7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham’s life which he lived, a hundred and seventy-five years. 8 Then Abraham expired and died in a good old age, old and satisfied, and was gathered to his people. 9 So Isaac and Ish′ma·el his sons buried him in the cave of Mach·pe′lah in the field of E′phron the son of Zo′har the Hit′tite that is in front of Mam′re, 10 the field that Abraham had purchased from the sons of Heth. There Abraham was buried, and also Sarah his wife. 11 And it developed that after Abraham’s death God continued to bless Isaac his son, and Isaac was dwelling close by Be′er-la′hai-roi

This is just as snippet with a lot missing. You may be better posting the information contained in the Quran and compare that to what is in the bible.

[Gharib]

Originally Posted by Pegg

You can read Genesis chapter 12 through to chapter 23Vs11 for the story of Abrahams entire life. I wont post everything but just a few passages.

[/i]This is just as snippet with a lot missing. You may be better posting the information contained in the Quran[/color] and compare that to what is in the bible.

If you don't mind me asking, can you post links to those verse or chapters which mention Abraham, I don't know how the bible works very well, so if possible and if I'm not asking too much can you post at least the relevant chapter and verse numbers?

And I too will do the same, I am gathering the verses and if it will be too much information then I will just post a little like you and then present the verse and chapter numbers for the rest.

[Pegg]

Originally Posted by eselam

If you don't mind me asking, can you post links to those verse or chapters which mention Abraham, I don't know how the bible works very well, so if possible and if I'm not asking too much can you post at least the relevant chapter and verse numbers?

And I too will do the same, I am gathering the verses and if it will be too much information then I will just post a little like you and then present the verse and chapter numbers for the rest.

Sure,

the first book of the bible is Genesis. This is one of the writings of Moses.

Genesis Chapter 12- 23 I've linked to the American Standard version.

[trruth]

Originally Posted by rosan1991

Hinduism is the most ancient religion in the world. And vedas(hindu scriptures) are created from god. start reading veda u will find all the answers. better if u read the real Sanskrit language scripture. veda is 5000 years old and at that time counting numbers,time, and everything a human needs had already discovered. in vedas it has been written that 4 yugas(ages) are there and these are cyclic and also everything is cyclic. think about now everything is cyclic(human body to computers). everything is to born from earth and destruct one day(by itself or by nature) and added to earth.season, years,times everything is cyclic. cause god Vishnu is driving the creature and his sudarshana chakra(it moves cyclic) indicates it.

bbc report"Hinduism has no definite starting point. The traditions which flow into Hinduism may go back several thousand years and some practitioners claim that the Hindu revelation is eternal.The early history of Hinduism is difficult to date."

Hinduism is the only religion in the world which has no starting pointing, cause it is the starting. vedas(scripture) are the only scripture in the world which has no author. cause it is created from god.
ALL RELIGIONS ARE STARTED FROM HINDUISM
READ VEDAS U WILL FIND ALL THE ANSWERS

i tried to read to find answers,but i had got a headache while reading,
So i will try again by tomorrow with the support of panadol extra strength.

[Student of X]

Originally Posted by eselam

I stated that the Qur'an is a continuum of the laws of God which explains the similarities.

Yes indeed it is.

All world religions share an ancient spiritual heritage. The important field of comparative religion combined with comparative mysticism and comparative mythology makes that very, very clear. God wants us all to grow in that realization, together.

"No one, as far as I know, has yet tried to compose into a single picture the new perspectives that have been opened in the fields of comparative symbolism, religion, mythology, and philosophy by the scholarship of recent years. The richly rewarded archaeological researches of the past few decades; astonishing clarifications, simplifications, and coordinations achieved by intensive studies in the spheres of philology, ethnology, philosophy, art history, folklore, and religion; fresh insights in psychological research; and the many priceless contributions to our science by the scholars, monks, and literary men of Asia, have combined to suggest a new image of the fundamental unity of the spiritual history of mankind.

Without straining beyond the treasuries of evidence already on hand in these widely scattered departments of our subject, therefore, but simply gathering from them the membra disjuncta of a unitary mythological science, I attempt in the following pages the first sketch of a natural history of the gods and heroes, such as in its final form should include in its purview all divine beings--not regarding any as sacrosanct or beyond its scientific domain. For, as in the visible world of the vegetable and animal kingdoms, so also in the visionary world of the gods: there has been a history, an evolution, a series of mutations, governed by laws; and to show forth such laws is the proper aim of science." -Joseph Campbell