Interperetation of the Satanic Bible (moral, Earth, tradition, contradiction)

[Nic_Italiano]

Id just like to know how everyone else here one these forums has interpereted The Satanic Bible. I very recently dis-continued my activites with a Satanic organization I joined, because well.....(this will sound very random!?!) the leader of the organization (and possibly other members aswell) was murdering people, and using drug money to fund the organization, and, by the looks of a quote from a profile webpage of that person, possibly rape aswell - all, under the name of Satanism.

Would just like to see if anyone else here does, or would do such things and use Satanism as an excuse? However, I dont expect anyone here will beleive me.

I disagree with such activites and actions that I just mentioned above. I am now seeking either a new organization to join, or possibly switch to another form of Satanism, if that is what LaVey really meant to put accross when he wrote The Satanic Bible.

Nic

[TrueQ]

I like the Satanic Bible, it has some good bits. It has some ****-bad parts as well though, and I think people take it with a little to much salt. It does, more or less, condone just about everything it might enter your mind to do. In a nutshell, the Satanic Bible presents a philosophy much like all the other philosophies I've encountered, in that there are parts I think make sublime sense, and parts where I think LaVey is a nutcase. I, however, would never use Satanism as an excuse to justify something I did, unless people reckoned it positive, since I'm big on maintaining the honor of my religion. Such things as that cheapen the name of Satanism, and make it harder for Satanists everywhere to deal with other folk.

[Serpens]

Originally Posted by Nic_Italiano

Id just like to know how everyone else here one these forums has interpereted The Satanic Bible. I very recently dis-continued my activites with a Satanic organization I joined, because well.....(this will sound very random!?!) the leader of the organization (and possibly other members aswell) was murdering people, and using drug money to fund the organization, and, by the looks of a quote from a profile webpage of that person, possibly rape aswell - all, under the name of Satanism.

Would just like to see if anyone else here does, or would do such things and use Satanism as an excuse? However, I dont expect anyone here will beleive me.

I disagree with such activites and actions that I just mentioned above. I am now seeking either a new organization to join, or possibly switch to another form of Satanism, if that is what LaVey really meant to put accross when he wrote The Satanic Bible.

Nic

The Church of Satan, the organization that Anton LaVey founded, does not endorse, condone, or even tolerate illegal activity by its members. In fact, anyone that goes against the laws of the land are quite promptly and very harshly removed the organization. Check out http://www.satannet.net/lttd if you are interested in LaVey's Satanism.

Also, read http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Bunco.html
This warns against pseudo-Satanic organizations.

Originally Posted by TrueQ

I like the Satanic Bible, it has some good bits. It has some ****-bad parts as well though, and I think people take it with a little to much salt. It does, more or less, condone just about everything it might enter your mind to do. In a nutshell, the Satanic Bible presents a philosophy much like all the other philosophies I've encountered, in that there are parts I think make sublime sense, and parts where I think LaVey is a nutcase. I, however, would never use Satanism as an excuse to justify something I did, unless people reckoned it positive, since I'm big on maintaining the honor of my religion. Such things as that cheapen the name of Satanism, and make it harder for Satanists everywhere to deal with other folk.

No, The Satanic Bible does not "condone" anything illegal anywhere in its pages. Perhaps you can explain exactly where Anton LaVey "sounded like a nut case" in any of his books?

[TrueQ]

This'll be a fairly eclectic list. But, heres a few things LaVey did or said that condone illegality or just sound like lunacy to me:

My favorite quote to mock of LaVey's is, "There has never been a great 'love' movement in the history of the world that hasn't wound up killing countless numbers of people, we must assume, to prove how much they loved them! Every hypocrite who ever walked the Earth has had pockets bulging with love!" (Under the section in the Book of Lucifer, "Love and Hate", if you want to look it up) Aside from having two exclamation marks in two sentences, the statement was made obsolete practically immediately thanks to the hippie movement. Now, I'll admit it isn't very fair of me to mock a dead man for not being able to see into the future, but this does demonstrate nicely that LaVey wasn't some omniscient uber-guru.

There is an important contradiction in LaVey's name that no one seems to point out. Isn't it strange for a high school dropout to go around stylizing himself as 'Doctor', especially in the view of his outspoken beliefs regarding the fulfilment of all personal desire? The poor guy, I wouldn't know from experience, having never spoken with him on the subject (Or any other subject, for that matter), but it seems to me he may have always wanted to acheive more formalized learning. Presumably he was either to proud or to busy to go out and get it.

The eleventh Satanic Commandment, "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him." gives a person carte blanche to do whatever he deems necessary acheive 'destruction', which is a nebulous term depending on context and could very easily slip into illegality.

The fourth Satanic Commandment, "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." has the same problem, in addition to going against the rules of being a good host, which I hold very dear.

The first Satanic commandment, "Do not give advice or opinions unless you are asked." is blatantly insane, though I'm ironically following it now. One of the main reasons for any plan to fail is that someone did not ask the right person for advice, and besides, if you can help someone out without inconveniencing anyone, why not offer an unsolicited free hand?

That was a brief list, you can ask more questions if you like, but keep an open mind, and remember that for all these failings, I like the guy! Its not like me to disapprove of someone just for breaking the law. After all, "**** the po-lice!"

(No disrespect to any po-lice who happen to be around. Much like LaVey, I think you all do both good work and bad work while out in the world.)

[Serpens]

Originally Posted by TrueQ

This'll be a fairly eclectic list. But, heres a few things LaVey did or said that condone illegality or just sound like lunacy to me:

My favorite quote to mock of LaVey's is, "There has never been a great 'love' movement in the history of the world that hasn't wound up killing countless numbers of people, we must assume, to prove how much they loved them! Every hypocrite who ever walked the Earth has had pockets bulging with love!" (Under the section in the Book of Lucifer, "Love and Hate", if you want to look it up) Aside from having two exclamation marks in two sentences, the statement was made obsolete practically immediately thanks to the hippie movement. Now, I'll admit it isn't very fair of me to mock a dead man for not being able to see into the future, but this does demonstrate nicely that LaVey wasn't some omniscient uber-guru.

Anton LaVey is referring to religious movements, predominantly Catholic movements, not the "hippie" era. (Although it is argued by some that the movement was, in some ways ,equally destructive)

Originally Posted by TrueQ

There is an important contradiction in LaVey's name that no one seems to point out. Isn't it strange for a high school dropout to go around stylizing himself as 'Doctor', especially in the view of his outspoken beliefs regarding the fulfilment of all personal desire? The poor guy, I wouldn't know from experience, having never spoken with him on the subject (Or any other subject, for that matter), but it seems to me he may have always wanted to acheive more formalized learning. Presumably he was either to proud or to busy to go out and get it.

Anton LaVey's followers in the Church of Satan called him that with a smile and a wink as a sign of respect. Where did you get this from, anyway? Michael and Zeena Aquino's pack of lies?

Originally Posted by TrueQ

The eleventh Satanic Commandment, "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him." gives a person carte blanche to do whatever he deems necessary acheive 'destruction', which is a nebulous term depending on context and could very easily slip into illegality.

Anton LaVey assumes here that the reader isn't a moron and will not do anything illegal. He has stated in many interviews, additional books, and writings exactly what he meant for those that misinterpret him: Anton LaVey's brand of Satanic philosophy is layed out in quite precise terms for those that can be bothered to read all of his material. "Destruction" is given many definitions in The Satanic Bible; it is not limited to only physical violence.

Originally Posted by TrueQ

The fourth Satanic Commandment, "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." has the same problem, in addition to going against the rules of being a good host, which I hold very dear.

If someone you had invited (Or had not invited) into your home began maliciously insulting you, self-righteously preaching at you, or destroying things you own, would you still treat him nicely? This is what LaVey meant. It is intended as a counter to "white-light religious philosophy" regarding unconditional niceness. You misinterpret what he wrote or are complaining because his philosophy does not dictate every nuance of how you should think.

Originally Posted by TrueQ

The first Satanic commandment, "Do not give advice or opinions unless you are asked." is blatantly insane, though I'm ironically following it now. One of the main reasons for any plan to fail is that someone did not ask the right person for advice, and besides, if you can help someone out without inconveniencing anyone, why not offer an unsolicited free hand?

Ask people if you may give them advice before giving it, but don't get "preachy" if someone else fails to do the same.

Originally Posted by TrueQ

That was a brief list, you can ask more questions if you like, but keep an open mind, and remember that for all these failings, I like the guy! Its not like me to disapprove of someone just for breaking the law. After all, "**** the po-lice!"

(No disrespect to any po-lice who happen to be around. Much like LaVey, I think you all do both good work and bad work while out in the world.)

Anyone that participates in illegal activity is quite harshly thrown out of the Church of Satan. Those who truly understand and apply Anton LaVey's philosophy are never people who break the law anyway. That a (Very) few amount of members sometimes slip into their own self-destructive habits says more about human nature than it does about the Church of Satan. Perhaps other "Satanic" organizations will allow its ranks to be filled with criminals, but not us. Furthermore, I find your trendy resentment of the police, the people who protect society from its own filth, as a valid representation of your personality, which I will not describe in detail because it would not be proper on this "tolerant" multifaith forum. I will say, however, that politicians and their knee-jerk, herd-pandering MO sometimes make it nessessary for officers of the law to do things that they feel are immoral or wasteful and that yes, a minority of police display their sadistic side on occassion and abuse their power.

[TrueQ]

(Please note before reading: This is from the point of view of someone who likes both LaVey and The Law, even bought some cops coffee one time, but who happens to have weird, personal beliefs about liberation and enlightenment)

My, my, my, not only are you not willing to keep an open mind, you're quite an elitist to boot, other Satanic organizations full of criminals, but not the well-respected Church of Satan, oh no never. *tsk* Here you have asked me for my opinions, which I took as a reasonable and laudable effort to learn new things, but was apparently just you fishing for ways to mock Satanists with different opinions than you in a reactionary way quite unflattering to the Church of Satan.

I'm telling you true when I say that just like it is impossible to live without Christian sins, it is equally impossible to truly live your life without breaking the law. So you live in New York, I'm told? New York is a city full of criminals as all faithful fans of Law and Order know. Have you really never broken the law, no speeding tickets, no drunken assaults, no drug use? If you answered yes to all of these questions, then friend, you do not have any freedom! You may be a Satanist, a mighty, liberated being, but there you are, crouching in fear of what the police and, indeed, your very own CoS might do to you if you were caught breaking the law.

The law is comparable to Jehovah in many ways (From the Satanic point of view, not so much from other religions). It is a force of oppression that restricts what people may do. It claims to be a force for good that improves the world and enriches people, yet it often cruelly mistreats the minorities in a culture. Why set yourself at the feet of such an organization while at the same time preaching that you are separate and free from the Church.

Also, just for the Hell of it, I'd like to point at that it isn't to terribly rare to run across an aging hippie who is of the opinion that the Hippie movement was, in fact, quite religious in tone. Perhaps its worth noting that people like that are also almost never of the opinion that the movement was in any way destructive. But who's to say who is right?

[Serpens]

Originally Posted by TrueQ

My, my, my, not only are you not willing to keep an open mind, you're quite an elitist to boot, other Satanic organizations full of criminals, but not the well-respected Church of Satan, oh no never. *tsk* Here you have asked me for my opinions, which I took as a reasonable and laudable effort to learn new things, but was apparently just you fishing for ways to mock Satanists with different opinions than you in a reactionary way quite unflattering to the Church of Satan.

What have I to learn of Satanism from someone who doesn't seem to apply LaVey's complete philosophy to his life, or even understand some of its basics? If you are a Luciferian, feel free to pick and choose anything out of his works that suit your own needs, but don't get angry if some of LaVey's followers take offense to you calling him a crazed kook on a "LaVey" Satanist forum just because some people use his writings to justify their stupid and self-destructive habits.

Before I found the CoS, I had the displeasure of encountering many "Satanic" groups that would spend their all of their time devoted to gulping down large quantities of shoplifted cough syrup to get high, spend all of their time smoking pot, and basically achieving nothing of value. I've also looked into the "First" Church of Satan, and did a little research on Crowley. I found that the Church of Satan is the only organization that I truly resonate with.

Originally Posted by TrueQ

I'm telling you true when I say that just like it is impossible to live without Christian sins, it is equally impossible to truly live your life without breaking the law. So you live in New York, I'm told? New York is a city full of criminals as all faithful fans of Law and Order know. Have you really never broken the law, no speeding tickets, no drunken assaults, no drug use? If you answered yes to all of these questions, then friend, you do not have any freedom! You may be a Satanist, a mighty, liberated being, but there you are, crouching in fear of what the police and, indeed, your very own CoS might do to you if you were caught breaking the law. The law is comparable to Jehovah in many ways (From the Satanic point of view, not so much from other religions). It is a force of oppression that restricts what people may do. It claims to be a force for good that improves the world and enriches people, yet it often cruelly mistreats the minorities in a culture. Why set yourself at the feet of such an organization while at the same time preaching that you are separate and free from the Church.

When I talked of breaking the law, I referred to penal law, not minor traffic infractions and petty violations. I should have been more specific. To my credit, I haven't even a single ticket to my name. I know how to have my fun without getting into legal trouble

There are quite a few documents written by Anton LaVey and others as to why Satanists should not use drugs, all of which I am inclined to agree with; I smoked Marijuana during High School for a few months, and I had fun doing it, but I eventually concluded that it wasn't worth the compromise to my health and intellect. The Church of Satan does not approve of any illegal activity and if it becomes an issue, yes you can be ex-communicated from the organization. A Magister of the CoS has said that "What you do in the comfort of your own home is up to you, if you take it outside your home then it becomes a problem for more than just you and that is never good. Reponsibility to the Responsible is the term that fits here, though personally I find drugs to be a weakness and it shows bad character for those who use them. "

One does not have to belong to the Church of Satan to be a Satanist as defined and codefied by Magus LaVey. Some Satanists do indulge occassionally in recreational drugs, which is fine as long as the user is indulging, and not compulsively abusing the substance to the point of where it becomes a detriment to his or her life.

Originally Posted by TrueQ

Also, just for the Hell of it, I'd like to point at that it isn't to terribly rare to run across an aging hippie who is of the opinion that the Hippie movement was, in fact, quite religious in tone. Perhaps its worth noting that people like that are also almost never of the opinion that the movement was in any way destructive. But who's to say who is right?

It's blatently obvious that LaVey was referring to established traditional religions such as Christianity and Islam in that paragraph. There was some good in the "Hippie" movement, but also many decidedly bad things too.

You accused me of being an elitist: I proudly plead GUILTY! I hold no grudge against you, but please do not criticize the man whom I follow when you haven't even researched the topic!

[Nic_Italiano]

This thread has sort of gone a little off topic - but thats fine, its still interesting.

I originally wanted to know what people think about Satanists like the one I was reffering to, using Satanism to warrant crimes, like the ones I pointed out.

[TrueQ]

You accused me of being an elitist: I proudly plead GUILTY! I hold no grudge against you, but please do not criticize the man whom I follow when you haven't even researched the topic

He has a point, if he holds no grudge towards me, I shouldn't criticize his mentor. I can only apoligize, saying that different modes of behavior are appropriate to different peoplen, and I badly misjudged what was acceptable to him. Though there are differences in our opinion, I'm willing to go my separate way and follow my own preacher if he is.

Y'all should get back on topic to help out Nic.

[Serpens]

Originally Posted by Nic_Italiano

This thread has sort of gone a little off topic - but thats fine, its still interesting.

I originally wanted to know what people think about Satanists like the one I was reffering to, using Satanism to warrant crimes, like the ones I pointed out.

I think of them the same as I think of people who use any doctrine to justify their crimes and break the law: that the only productive thing that they have to offer the world is the nitrogen from their decaying bodies. May their Justice be swift and painful.