Free pass to the Gates? (Jesus, priest, tradition, soul)

[Clank]

I've been a bit confused about one "practice" of christianity. In theory, can someone really live a life of sin, horrible sins such as murder, then on there death bed, confess all sins and be able to enter heaven. My friend first brought up the idea, and i've been wondering...
Are there some sort of "guards" in the bible against this?

[Scott1]

Jesus' call to conversion and penance, like that of the prophets before him, does not aim first at outward works, "sackcloth and ashes," fasting and mortification, but at the conversion of the heart, interior conversion....and this conversion is first of all a work of the grace of God who makes our hearts return to him: "Restore us to thyself, O LORD, that we may be restored!(Lam 5:21.)" It is in discovering the greatness of God's love that our heart is shaken by the horror and weight of sin and begins to fear offending God by sin and being separated from him.... and if this happens on a persons deathbed, then so be it... but I wouldn't want to risk waiting for that... you may never get the chance.

[Charity]

Originally Posted by Clank

I've been a bit confused about one "practice" of christianity. In theory, can someone really live a life of sin, horrible sins such as murder, then on there death bed, confess all sins and be able to enter heaven. My friend first brought up the idea, and i've been wondering...
Are there some sort of "guards" in the bible against this?

I guess the thief on the cross with Jesus would have been a perfect example of the situation you described. Same as a death bed confession....So I guess that says you sort of have a period of grace, sort of like a lapse in your insurance as long as your timing is right.....But is it worth the chance? Insurance-don't leave home without it.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

IIRC, that practice was common in the early days of the Church. I remember hearing that Constantine waited until he was on his deathbed to be baptized, even though he had converted to Christianity (and made it the official religion of Rome) long before.

Also IIRC, the motivation for this came out of uncertainty regarding confession. These days (and correct me if I'm wrong - I've had some exposure to the Catholic Church, but I'm not Catholic myself), repentence is considered to cover all sins committed previously, even those not explicitly confessed to, except those deliberately withheld. At the time, the Church hadn't made an authoritative pronouncement on whether repentance could forgive sins that had been forgotten during confession, so some people waited until they figured they had no more sins left to do before they were baptized, rather than risk being damned for unintentionally leaving something out with the priest.

Now... all this is from memory and gathered from a number of sources, so it very well may be complete hooey.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

IIRC, that practice was common in the early days of the Church. I remember hearing that Constantine waited until he was on his deathbed to be baptized, even though he had converted to Christianity (and made it the official religion of Rome) long before.

Well... he did wait (as the story goes) but he hadn't "converted" before that (IMO) and he didn't make Christianity the official religion... it was his son who did that after Constantine had died.

These days (and correct me if I'm wrong - I've had some exposure to the Catholic Church, but I'm not Catholic myself), repentence is considered to cover all sins committed previously, even those not explicitly confessed to, except those deliberately withheld.

Sorta.... contrition (sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.) can forgive all sins if it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else and it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible. (CCC 1451-1452)

At the time, the Church hadn't made an authoritative pronouncement on whether repentance could forgive sins that had been forgotten during confession, so some people waited until they figured they had no more sins left to do before they were baptized, rather than risk being damned for unintentionally leaving something out with the priest.

At the time there was no such thing as confession to a priest:

Over the centuries the concrete form in which the Church has exercised this power received from the Lord has varied considerably. During the first centuries the reconciliation of Christians who had committed particularly grave sins after their Baptism (for example, idolatry, murder, or adultery) was tied to a very rigorous discipline, according to which penitents had to do public penance for their sins, often for years, before receiving reconciliation. To this "order of penitents" (which concerned only certain grave sins), one was only rarely admitted and in certain regions only once in a lifetime. During the seventh century Irish missionaries, inspired by the Eastern monastic tradition, took to continental Europe the "private" practice of penance, which does not require public and prolonged completion of penitential works before reconciliation with the Church. From that time on, the sacrament has been performed in secret between penitent and priest. This new practice envisioned the possibility of repetition and so opened the way to a regular frequenting of this sacrament. It allowed the forgiveness of grave sins and venial sins to be integrated into one sacramental celebration. In its main lines this is the form of penance that the Church has practiced down to our day. (CCC 1447)

[Katzpur]

I absolutely, positively do not believe in deathbed repentence. The only reason a truly wicked person would wait until the final moments of his life to repent would be fear. Fear is not the same thing as remorse. On the other hand, I don't believe that someone who dies unrepentant has necessarily condemned himself to an eternity of eternal suffering either. My religion's teachings are that the final curtain does not fall at the moment of death. Death is more like an intermission of sorts.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I absolutely, positively do not believe in deathbed repentence. The only reason a truly wicked person would wait until the final moments of his life to repent would be fear.

... and if it was sincere....?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Scott1

... and if it was sincere....?

I suppose that would change things. I would just really question the both the timing and the sincerity of anyone who was really wicked all his life who at the moment of death, suddenly decided to repent. People will say that this was the case with the thief on the cross, but the thing is, we don't know enough about him to be able to know what his situation was. Considering the fact that Christ forgave him, I am more inclined to think that he was maybe not such a horrible person after all. Look at Jean Valjean in "Les Miserables." He was a thief, but certainly not a wicked person. The fact that the thief addresses Christ as "Lord" also hints that he may have known of His teachings and believed them, regardless of the fact that he committed a crime. I believe that Jesus could see into the thief's heart and recognized that his repentence was sincere, so I don't believe that this particular example cuts it as proof that deathbed repentence is true repentence.

[OutOfTime]

no i definitely don't think so. you can't just do whatever sin and then pray for it to be forgiven and just go to heaven. it's like a test, either you pass or fail. god probably is merciful and if there's someone who was born and raised without ever knowing about god but was a good person, i still think they would go to heaven but if there's someone else who does the opposite, sins, it doesn't mean they'll go to heaven just because they're christian. it's not my place to judge who'll go where, but the commandments or whateevr they're called in other abrahamic religions were made for a reason.