Beliefs in the second comming. Is it required? (Jesus Christ, Earth)

[RedRain]

I'm a Swedenborgian. We believe that Jesus has already come again in the form of a new revelation revealed through Emanuel Swedenborg. I know this does not make sense to many Christians as they believe that Jesus will come Himself in the body, but it makes sense to me with the state of our world today.

I do not think if Jesus came to this world in the body that that would leave people in freedom to not believe in Him. We are a much more scientific world now then when Jesus came to earth before. People would have no choice but to believe if they saw Jesus performing miracles in this day.

It is just an opinion of mine. I believe first and foremost in God's protection of our freedom to choose to not follow Him and further to not even acknowledge His existence. It would not make sense to me that He would come and end the world with judgment. Why would the world need to end?

God is a still, small voice. Why could He not choose to reveal Himself through revelation, where we as a people would have a greater freedom to accept or reject His offering.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by RedRain

I'm a Swedenborgian. We believe that Jesus has already come again in the form of a new revelation revealed through Emanuel Swedenborg. I know this does not make sense to many Christians as they believe that Jesus will come Himself in the body, but it makes sense to me with the state of our world today.

How do Swedenborgians interpret Acts 1:10-11, which states, "And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." These verses really look to me as if Jesus will return in bodily form, just as He left this earth in bodily form.

[RedRain]

This is a quote from the first passage of "Heaven and Hell" by Swedenborg:

Those who understood these words according to the sense of the letter have no other belief than that during that latest period, which is called the final judgment, all these things are to come to pass just as they are described in the literal sense, that is, that the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will fall from the sky, that the sign of the Lord will appear in the sky, and He Himself will be seen in the clouds, attended by angels with trumpets; and furthermore, as is foretold else where, that the whole visible universe will be destroyed, and afterwards a new heaven with a new earth will come into being. Such is the opinion of most men in the church at the present day. But those who so believe are ignorant of the arcana that lie hid in every particular of the Word. For in every particular of the Word there is an internal sense which treats of things spiritual and heavenly, not of things natural and worldly, such as are treated of in the sense of the letter.

We interpret a lot of what the Bible says as being representative as states of the human mind or of heavenly things. Much of the Bible, like the Old Testament, does not make sense if you do not look for the deeper meaning behind it's passages.

Here's more from later in the passage:

The "sun" there that is to be darkened signifies the Lord in respect to love; the "moon" the Lord in respect to faith; "stars" knowledges of good and truth, or of love and faith; "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" the manifestation of Divine truth; "the tribes of the earth" that shall mourn, all things relating to truth and good or to faith and love; "the coming of the Lord in the clouds of heaven with power and glory" His presence in the Word, and revelation, "clouds" signifying the sense of the letter of the Word, and "glory" the internal sense of the Word; " the angels with a trumpet and great voice" signify heaven as a source of Divine truth. All this makes clear that these words of the Lord mean that at the end of the church, when there is no longer any love, and consequently no faith, the Lord will open the internal meaning of the Word and reveal arcana of heaven.

[Mr. Peanut]

Some scripture on the 2nd Coming/Rapture: While most every Christian believes Christ will return, we differ on things like whether the Rapture and 2nd Coming are separate events, if the Rapture will occur before the Great Seven Year Tribulation, in the middle, or after, before or after the millenium, and even if the Tribulation itself has already happenned, or even as we see above, the 2nd Coming. Personaly, I believe the Lord WILL Rapture his church before the 7-yr. Trib., and will return again at the end of that and set up his Millenial Kingdom.

John 14
1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Acts 1
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

1 Thess. 4 (Rapture, meets us in the air)
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Zecharia 14 (2nd Coming, cleaves Mt. of Olives,)
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by RedRain

We interpret a lot of what the Bible says as being representative as states of the human mind or of heavenly things. Much of the Bible, like the Old Testament, does not make sense if you do not look for the deeper meaning behind it's passages.

I agree that there is much in the Bible that is symbolic or allegorical, and that we cannot take everything the Bible says literally. However, I think that when the literal meaning is within reason, it's a mistake to assume that what is plainly stated actually means something else. For instance, the Bible says that God created Eve out of one of Adam's ribs. I see no rational reason to believe that the Creator needed to perform surgery on the first man in order to create the first woman. On the other hand, Christians believe that Christ literally walked the earth and was literally taken up into Heaven, and that this event was witnessed by a number of people. What reason is there to assume that His prophesied return will not also literally happen? This is not something that we need to look for a deeper meaning in. As soon as we begin to interpret passages of scripture figuratively, as is sometimes necessary, we run the risk of misinterpreting them. That's why Isaiah and Revelation are so darned difficult to understand. Both contain so much symbolism and are consequently interpreted in so many different ways.

[RedRain]

I am sure there are things in the Bible stated clearly that you do not take literally. For example:

If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched.

This seems clear enough to me. Who is to say we are not to take this passage at its word? I do not think it is up to either of us to say which passages should be interpreted and which passages should be taken for their word for the other. It is up to both of us to use our reason to choose for ourselves which passages need to be interpreted to mean something different. There are many clear commandments in the Old Testament as well that we should not take at face value. That certain people should be stoned, etc.

If you look at it this way. The New Testament changed a lot of what was said in the Old Testament. For example, eye for an eye should now be turn the other cheek.

Don't you have a third testament as well as us that takes precedence over the New Testament?

[Dunemeister]

The NT didn't change the OT. If anything, Jesus intensified it. This was a similar project to what the other rabbis of his day did, but they intensified it in the wrong direction, according to Jesus. So it's not a change but a radicalization.

If we are going to decide how to interpret a passage, it's not simply "up to us to use our reason." Yes, we must. But we must also consult tradition. We're not the first or best informed people to decide how to handle the scriptures. We ignore tradition to our peril. If tradition takes a particular passage metaphorically, we should do so too unless there are very compelling reasons to do otherwise.

And even then, we ought to be careful, for what seems compelling to us may do so because of our own rebellious tendencies or hidden agendas. As Paul said, "I believe I am without sin but I am not thereby acquitted." So there are strong reasons to be deeply immersed in tradition when you read the scriptures. When you step outside the tradition, you become apt to steer off-course very easily.

[RedRain]

How is the pulling the donkey out of the ditch on the Sabbath being now acceptable and an eye for an eye now being turn the other cheek not changing the commandments of the old testament?

[Henk]

April 11, 2008

"I call you all to have hope in My promises"

Reading: Mark 16:1-13

Dear friends,

"Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, who though he was in the form of God did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness, and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross. Because of this God greatly exalted him." Philippians 2:5-9

I spent a half-hour in contemplative prayer this morning with Jesus, Our Lord and God. He said, "Melvin, My brother and friend, I love you and I bless all My brothers and sisters living in the world, especially those who believe in My resurrection and accept Me as their Lord and Saviour. You are in the season of Easter, the great feast that celebrates My rising from the grave. Read the great accounts of My resurrection in the Gospels and believe that I am the Son of God, who for love of every man and woman, suffered and died on the cross for their salvation. The Father highly exalted Me by bringing My body back to life after three days and called Me to sit at His right hand in heaven.

My resurrection from the dead placed the seal on My mission on earth. It showed that I am indeed the Messiah, the Saviour of the world. You can have confidence in Me and in every word I said. My resurrection is the foundation of your faith in Me and it shows that I am divine. My people do not doubt this great truth.

Now that I am risen from the dead, you can believe My words that all the dead will rise again. When I return to earth at the end of time, all those who died from the beginning of the world will come back to life. This will be the general resurrection when all will take back their bodies; some will go to eternal bliss in heaven and others to eternal damnation. Those in heaven will have a transformed and glorified body, never to suffer or die again. I call you all to have hope in My promises that all I have said will come to pass. Follow Me today and every day and you will find yourself on My right on the last day and I will bring you home with Me in heaven. I love you all."

Father Melvin