baptism (Jesus Christ, salvation, sin, God, Christian)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Children do not need the affirmation that grace is available to their little souls?

Please understand, sojourner, that it is not my intention to show any disrespect. I just see this from a completely different perspective. In my opinion, it is impossible for a child to receive affirmation of something he is not cognizant of.

They do not need to be made "part of the family?"

I don't see them needing to be made part of the family because they were a part of the family (I'm speaking of "God's family," as I assume you are, as well) from the moment of birth. They only need to be accepted back into the family if they have strayed from it. I see a child as leaving the family as soon as he or she is old enough to understand what it means to disobey God's commandments (i.e. to sin) and chooses in any way to do so. I see baptism as the means by which that child (or adult, as the case may be) expresses the desire to once again be a part of the family. Once he has repented of his sins, he is free to receive "baptism of repentence for the remission of sins." At that point, he enters into a covenant relationship with his Savior, in which he promises to do his best to be obedient in the future. As a result of that covenant, he has the assurance that, with continual repentence, He will be justified before God.

It has benefit, in that the stories are told and become part of the child's history -- "where I came from."

To me, that part of the child's history would be much more meaningful if he knew that it came about as a result of his own choice.

There is no "advantage" in baptism. It is an act of obedience, but the act does not bring us salvation, for salvation is already ours.

It would be an act of obedience if the person who received it had the choice as to whether or not to participate.

That is how baptism is an outward sign. There is value, in that we are ritualistically complying with the requirements of the tribe. It's a sign to us and to the tribe that we are in compliance.

Or at least that our parents are.

When you witness a baptism, what does the act of the baptism inform you of?

It informs me that the individual being baptised has acknowledged his need for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and has made the decision to try to follow His Savior throughout the rest of his life.

What do you see happening?

I see the person as having an awareness of the miracle of forgiveness and as having faith in God's love.

What kind of knowledge do you gain by witnessing the act?

To me, it's a reminder of the day I experienced this wonderful event myself.

[Bishka]

I'm curious to those who say we don't need to be baptized.

Jesus Christ was baptized, was He not? He didn't need to be, but He was, so why shouldn't we?

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

I'm curious to those who say we don't need to be baptized.

Jesus Christ was baptized, was He not? He didn't need to be, but He was, so why shouldn't we?

Excellent Point! Bravo!

[I Panicked! At the Disco]

That we are saved by grace and not by our own devices is one of the very basic tenets of the faith. Is the water magical? Can the actions of a priest create God's salvation? Can our participation in an event but us a ticket? Can "proper belief" wipe out our sins? No. It is the grace of Christ that has put our sin in remission and reconciled us to God. Baptism is the outward sign of that grace at work in us.

If we "have" to do anything, it is to recognize our changed nature, accept it, and turn from our former selves to live our new life as part of the Body of Christ.

Someone could hold out a dollar to you, and tell you that it's free, but you have to come and get it. Same thing with salvation. It is a gift from God, but we still have to do something to get it. Not earn it, mind you, but there are still certain requirements to get the gift.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by smoky*mountain*starlight

Someone could hold out a dollar to you, and tell you that it's free, but you have to come and get it. Same thing with salvation. It is a gift from God, but we still have to do something to get it. Not earn it, mind you, but there are still certain requirements to get the gift.

Another good point!

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Another good point!

I thought it was a good point, too, as far as it went. But when somebody says (and I'm not saying that smoky said this, because she didn't) that salvation is a "free gift" and that we don't have to "do" anything to receive it, all we have to "do" is believe, it makes me crazy. Since when is believing not "doing" something? The only Christian I'm aware of on RF who truly believes in salvation by grace alone is Sojourner. The rest of us (Catholics, Protestants, Mormons) believe that we have to do something. It's what that something is that we disagree on.

[athanasius]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I thought it was a good point, too, as far as it went. But when somebody says (and I'm not saying that smoky said this, because she didn't) that salvation is a "free gift" and that we don't have to "do" anything to receive it, all we have to "do" is believe, it makes me crazy. Since when is believing not "doing" something? The only Christian I'm aware of on RF who truly believes in salvation by grace alone is Sojourner. The rest of us (Catholics, Protestants, Mormons) believe that we have to do something. It's what that something is that we disagree on.

Well said as always my good friend! Although we Catholics do teach Salvation by Gods grace alone but we do not teach salvation by faith alone.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by athanasius

Well said as always my good friend! Although we Catholics do teach Salvation by Gods grace alone but we do not teach salvation by faith alone.

I think it would be an accurate statement to say that that's what we Latter-day Saints teach, too -- even though I didn't do a very good job of saying so in my last post. We don't believe that there is anything in the world we could do to save ourselves. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, none of us would be saved, not our Prophet or your Pope. We believe that God expects us to have faith in our Savior, to repent of our sins, and to do our best to obey His commandments, but in the end, it is by grace that we are saved. Pretty similar, huh?