baptism (Jesus Christ, salvation, sin, God, Christian)

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

This question, as well as your prior statement... ...implies to me that your understanding of the purpose of baptism is different from mine. Maybe this difference in understanding is at the root of our disagreement as to when a person should be baptized.

I'd say (without taking the time to really look at it) that you're just about right. I'm comfortable with that. You don't have to "fit my mold" in order for me to believe that God finds you acceptable.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Baaptism doesn't bring salvation.

No, it doesn't, but it is commanded of those who profess a belief in Christ.

Grace has already brought salvation. Baptism serves as an outward sign of that grace working in us.

Would you mind citing some specific verses which teach that baptism "is an outward sign of grace"?

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

In speaking of baptism as something God has commended of us, the Bible consistently refers to it in conjunction with repentence. When a family baptizes a child who neither has the need to repent nor the ability to make this commitment for himself, I see it that baptism as having little value. Certainly, Christian parents have the responsibility to teach their children about the tenets of their faith, not no one -- not even the most well-meaning parents -- can either repent on behalf of someone else or make a commitment to God on behalf of someone else.

Only those who are accountable for their actions need consider repentance. Children are not accountable for themselves, so they have no need for repentance before their baptism. That would be akin to requiring a bald man to comb his hair as part of his morning ritual.

Baptism has great value for everyone, for baptism affirms that grace which is offered to all humanity, even little children.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

I'd say (without taking the time to really look at it) that you're just about right. I'm comfortable with that. You don't have to "fit my mold" in order for me to believe that God finds you acceptable.

That's good to hear. It's also a statement I can agree with.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

No, it doesn't, but it is commanded of those who profess a belief in Christ.

Would you mind citing some specific verses which teach that baptism "is an outward sign of grace"?

Of course it's commanded of those who profess belief. Why would it not be? It is also commended to the households of those who believe, as we find in Acts.

What? You don't find in baptism an outward sign of grace? Why do we need the Bible to tell us what is obvious?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Only those who are accountable for their actions need consider repentance. Children are not accountable for themselves, so they have no need for repentance before their baptism. That would be akin to requiring a bald man to comb his hair as part of his morning ritual.

That alone is reason enough for me to believe that babies and very young children have no need of baptism. The scriptures command us to repent and be baptized. Someone who has never sinned cannot repent.

Baptism has great value for everyone, for baptism affirms that grace which is offered to all humanity, even little children.

I disagree, but I am serious in wanting to understand your position. Would you mind explaining to me what the benefit of baptism is for someone who does not even know that this ritual/ordinance/sacrament, etc. has taken place. I am especially interested in your answer as it ties to your belief in the universal salvation of mankind. Since you believe (as I'm quite sure you do) that there is literally no one who has ever lived who will not be saved, what do you believe the value of baptism to be, and how, in your opinion, can baptism conceivably benefit someone who dies an an infant? What advantage does a baptized infant have over an unbaptized infant since both will be saved anyway?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by sojourner

What? You don't find in baptism an outward sign of grace?

No, I'm sorry but I don't see the connection at all.

Why do we need the Bible to tell us what is obvious?

Uh, maybe because it's not obvious to all of us?