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  #11  
Old 07-14-2006, 04:26 AM
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Thats interesting. I've never heard of this before. Okay so if you don't turn you heart to your father then there will be a curse. Do you think the curse is hell? Or ....?
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  #12  
Old 07-14-2006, 07:32 AM
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SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
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Originally Posted by Mystic-als
Thats interesting. I've never heard of this before. Okay so if you don't turn you heart to your father then there will be a curse. Do you think the curse is hell? Or ....?
To be perfectly honest - I have no idea to what the "curse" refers.
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  #13  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:02 AM
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Okay and then how do the fathers turn their hearts back? I understand us turning our hearts to those who are dead. But how do they do it back?
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  #14  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:16 AM
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SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
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Originally Posted by Mystic-als
Okay and then how do the fathers turn their hearts back? I understand us turning our hearts to those who are dead. But how do they do it back?
I'm not entirely certain. Any turning of their hearts will be in the next world, so it wouldn't be readily observable. I have heard many stories of people seeming to get "other worldly" help in finding information about their ancestors. They may be helping in the work more than we realize. That's just a thought of mine though.

When the Angel Moroni visited Joseph Smith for the first time he quoted a lot of scriptures saying they were about to be fulfilled. Most of them he quoted like we see them in the Bible, but some were worded differently. This verse was one that was quoted differently:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1

36 After telling me these things, he commenced quoting the prophecies of the Old Testament. He first quoted part of the third chapter of aMalachi; and he quoted also the fourth or last chapter of the same prophecy, though with a little variation from the way it reads in our Bibles. Instead of quoting the first verse as it reads in our books, he quoted it thus:
37 For behold, the aday cometh that shall bburn as an oven, and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly shall burn as cstubble; for they that come shall burn them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

38 And again, he quoted the fifth verse thus: Behold, I will reveal unto you the aPriesthood, by the hand of bElijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the cLord.

39 He also quoted the next verse differently: And he shall plant in the hearts of the achildren the bpromises made to the fathers, and the hearts of the children shall turn to their fathers. If it were not so, the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming.
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  #15  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:22 AM
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Can I ask how the LDS bible was translated. Because it is almost entirely different from the normal KJV. Not outright different but the meanings and insinuations are.
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  #16  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:42 AM
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SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
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Originally Posted by Mystic-als
Can I ask how the LDS bible was translated. Because it is almost entirely different from the normal KJV. Not outright different but the meanings and insinuations are.
First of all, if you were to ask an LDS person to let you look at their Bible, you would find that the text is identical to any other KJV Bible. The differences come in the footnotes, which not only cross-refference the Bible with the other accepted scriptures of the LDS faith, but give clarification of what certain words mean and refferences to something called the JST (Joseph Smith Translation). I believe it is to this that you are referring. I found a decent article that may explain it to you. Unfortunately, I am never able to link to this site correctly, so I have posted the name of the article, as well as one section that might be especially helpful. You can search www.lds.org for the rest of the article. I'm sorry, but it's the best I can do.

David Rolph Seely, “The Joseph Smith Translation: ‘Plain and Precious Things’ Restored,” Ensign, Aug. 1997, 9
The Translation Process

In June 1830 the Prophet received by revelation the first part of the book of Moses. By February 1831 he had received the rest of the book. It appears in the JST manuscripts as chapters 1 through 6 of Genesis.
The Prophet did not “translate” the Bible in the traditional sense of the word—that is, go back to the earliest Hebrew and Greek manuscripts to make a new rendering into English. Rather, he went through the biblical text of the King James Version and made inspired corrections, revisions, and additions to the biblical text. Both the Lord and Joseph Smith consistently refer to the process of these inspired revisions and additions as “translation” (D&C 76:15; D&C 124:89). The Prophet acknowledged the revelatory nature of this translation work. He introduced the first chapter of the book of Moses in his journal as an example of the Lord granting “ ‘line upon line of knowledge—here a little and there a little’ [see Isa. 28:13], of which the following was a precious morsel.” 4
But the Prophet never recorded exactly how he did this work called translation. One clue is the 1828 copy of the King James Bible that the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery purchased from E. B. Grandin in Palmyra on 8 October 1829. It was marked by Joseph Smith in ink and pencil; words were crossed out and verses marked with various symbols. In addition, there are five handwritten manuscripts containing long Joseph Smith Translation passages of the Bible. These are in the handwriting of various scribes, including Oliver Cowdery, John Whitmer, Sidney Rigdon, and others. Some of the manuscripts have entire biblical passages written out and others have only the specific verses or passages that were changed in some way by the Prophet.
From this evidence it appears “that the Prophet and a scribe would sit at a table, with the Prophet having the King James Version of the Bible open before him. Probably he would read from the King James Version and dictate the revisions, while the scribe recorded what he said.” 5 Some of the corrections and revisions were small, including sometimes only vital punctuation changes. Other revisions were much more lengthy, restoring large passages of text.
LDS scholar Robert J. Matthews from Brigham Young University concluded that there appear to be at least four different kinds of changes the Prophet Joseph Smith made to the Bible:
“(1) Portions may amount to restorations of content material once written by the biblical authors but since deleted from the Bible.
“(2) Portions may consist of a record of actual historical events that were not recorded, or were recorded but never included in the biblical collection.
“(3) Portions may consist of inspired commentary by the Prophet Joseph Smith, enlarged, elaborated, and even adapted to a latter-day situation. …
“(4) Some items may be a harmonization of doctrinal concepts that were revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith independently of his translation of the Bible, but by means of which he was able to discover that a biblical passage was inaccurate.” 6
While it is not always possible to determine the exact nature of each of the Prophet’s revisions, we accept them as being inspired. From his studies Brother Matthews concludes: “The translation was not a simple, mechanical recording of divine dictum, but rather a study-and-thought process accompanied and prompted by revelation from the Lord. That it was a revelatory process is evident from statements by the Prophet and others who were personally acquainted with the work.” 7 In fact, many sections of the Doctrine and Covenants were revealed during the period in which Joseph worked on his inspired translation; in several instances, the revelation of important doctrines was directly connected with the translation process. For example, at one point the Prophet wrote: “From sundry revelations which had been received, it was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man, had been taken from the Bible, or lost before it was compiled. It appeared self-evident from what truths were left, that if God rewarded every one according to the deeds done in the body the term ‘Heaven,’ as intended for the Saints’ eternal home must include more kingdoms than one.” 8 He then recorded that while translating the gospel of John, he and Sidney Rigdon had seen in vision what is now section 76 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the revelation on the three degrees of glory. The vision was given after they had read John 5:29.
Other examples include section 77, received in connection with the translation of the book of Revelation, and section 91, received when Joseph Smith came to the books of the Apocrypha that were part of the Bible he was using.
During the years 1830 to 1833, the Prophet, assisted by scribes, worked his way completely through the Bible. On 2 July 1833, Sidney Rigdon, corresponding with “the Brethren in Zion” whose letters to the Prophet had just arrived, reported, “We this day finished the translating of the Scriptures, for which we returned gratitude to our Heavenly Father,” and, two paragraphs later, refers to “having finished the translation of the Bible, a few hours since.” 9 But throughout his life the Prophet continued to work on the manuscripts, editing and making further changes, preparing them for publication virtually until the time of his death. Small portions of the translation were published during his lifetime in these Church publications: The Evening and the Morning Star, Times and Seasons, and the Millennial Star. On many occasions the Prophet expressed his desire and hope that the new translation would eventually be made available to the Church in its entirety. The martyrdom of the Prophet prevented this in his lifetime.
The manuscripts of the Joseph Smith Translation were preserved by Emma Smith, the Prophet’s wife, and eventually became property of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which published various editions of the translation. The first edition appeared in 1867; in 1944 a corrected edition was published, containing at least 352 verses amended to correct copyist proofreading and typographical errors in the earlier edition. In 1970 a parallel-column edition was published, with the King James Version in one column and the Joseph Smith Translation in the other.
Many Latter-day Saints were cautious about those publications because of the different versions that had been printed and because the manuscript evidence showing what textual changes the Prophet had made was not available for study. In 1968 Robert J. Matthews was given permission by the Reorganized Church to examine the original manuscripts. His book examining the significance of the Joseph Smith Translation was published in 1975. 10
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  #17  
Old 07-17-2006, 08:50 AM
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I am not in the least challenging the LDS bible. Please don't missunderstand me. I am merely commenting on the differences that I have seen here at RF when the LDS is quoted.
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  #18  
Old 07-17-2006, 09:21 AM
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SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
SoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on treesSoyLeche thinks frubals grow on trees
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Originally Posted by Mystic-als
I am not in the least challenging the LDS bible. Please don't missunderstand me. I am merely commenting on the differences that I have seen here at RF when the LDS is quoted.
I didn't think you were. Sorry if I sounded defensive. I'm just trying to promote understanding

Personally, I avoid using the JST when talking to people of other faiths. There is absolutely no academic basis for accepting it as valid, so unless you believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet it is pretty much worthless.

As a side note, the passage I quoted that got us onto this topic was not one that was changed by Joseph Smith in the JST. He left the verse in Malachi alone. In the BoM, when Christ visited the people on the American continent, he quoted this verse to them as well. In the BoM it reads exactly like it does in the Bible.

Joseph claimed that when the angel Moroni quoted it to him he worded it differently though. I don't know where Moroni got the wording from.

Anyway, this thread isn't about Joseph Smith's translation of the bible. I'd be glad to discuss it more, but it should probably be in a different thread.
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  #19  
Old 07-18-2006, 07:45 AM
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Agreed.

So this thread hasn't really come to any conclusion. Oh well maybe one day we'll know.
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