Liberal Christianity (Jesus, ritual, morals, gospel, Sodom)

[Green Gaia]

What do Liberal (from a theological perspective, not political) Christians believe about evolution, homosexuality, abortion, the Bible, Jesus, the Trinity, and just God in general? How do Conservative Christians view Liberal Christians?

[Helios]

From your question it sounds as if you are saying that in our present time we have both liberal and conservative Christians. However it cannot be this way. For both liberal and conservative Christians to exist at the same time is implausible. One of them is not Christian. Because the issues you mentioned have entered the public eye most recently (homosexuality, abortion), Christians who have 'liberal' opinions about whether or not homosexuality or abortion is correct are simply adopting behaviors they have grown up with in their lifetime and are integrating it into their belief systems. Therefore there are no conservative and liberal Christians. In Christianity it is a sin to be homosexual (ie: Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorra) also abortion is a sin as the practice of sacrificing/killing infant children as the result of sex was outlawed by god according to Christianity. Therefore those Christians who hold what we call today 'conservative' beliefs are simply holding fast to Christianity, those who have what we call today 'liberal' beliefs, well arent being Christianity. This is fact, not opinion. The same is true for evolution. According to the old Testament, Adam and Eve were created by god and each brother from the two sets of twins that were begotten were ordered to marry the other brother's twin sister. To address 'macro' evolution, that is the evolution of man from ape, it is also tradition that god transformed a tribe of israelite idol-woshippers into apes, and that this particular tribe with both man and ape features was stricken of their reproductive organs thus dying off quite rapidly. I do not believe that these so called 'liberal' and 'conservative' Christians have any differing believes concering scripture or god's existence, at least not anything technical. You would only find such bold differences in faith between different sects of Christianity. However, to be a Christian and support homosexualiy and/or abortion, is simply not possible.

This is fact and truth according to Christianity.
I am not Christian, but I speak the truth.

Helios has spoken.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by Helios

To address 'macro' evolution, that is the evolution of man from ape, it is also tradition that god transformed a tribe of israelite idol-woshippers into apes, and that this particular tribe with both man and ape features was stricken of their reproductive organs thus dying off quite rapidly.

Where in the Bible does this accour? Just curious.

[Helios]

According to the old Testament, Adam and Eve were created by god and each brother from the...To address 'macro' evolution, that is the evolution of man from ape, it is also tradition that god transformed a tribe of israelite idol-woshippers into apes, and that this particular tribe...

I am sorry to have confused you. Perhaps you read too fast and misunderstand my knowledge. As stated above I referred to the bible in the story of Adam and Eve. However I mentioned the word 'tradition' when refering to macroevolution. When one is discussing the oral transfer of information from one historical time frame to another, the word 'tradition' is most used. As you know, before the innovation of written languages and books as a facilitator of the passage of information, oral stories were told over and over, and it was the trade of some to memorize these stories or songs and pass them on to new peoples and new generations. Of course this practice ended a long time ago with the creation of the written word. But the use of the word 'tradition' is still used today.

I bid you well.

Helios has spoken.

[brotherjim]

Whoever,

To say that liberal and conservative Christians do not exist concurrently, is from another planet and one that cannot even be a parallel universe.

Of course both types of Christians exist, and have since the Day of Pentecost 2,000 years ago when many who visited Jerusalem for the holiday were converted at the preaching of Peter, and then went back to their homelands to be isolated without an apostle or possibly even anyone who ever knew Christ and heard His Gospel--and possibly lived the remainder of their life as such, and most probably fostered many liberal Christian offspring as a result.

In a nutshell: a "conservative" Christian, AKA one of the "Evangelical and charismatic Christians," believe that in order to have a relationship with God there's a spiritual rebirth needed that takes place instantly and supernaturally in the unseen spiritual realm, and that it must take place at or after the person is able to consciously decide to accept such (this rules out infant baptism insofar as that baptism being the only requirement). Most believe that a person is then baptized in water--and regardless if they were baptized as infants, and that this is, in the least, a confession as to their newfound relationship with God. Furthermore, the conserv. Christian believes that there's absolutely no good thing that a person can do to have this relationship, other than to receive from God the Graces He offers.

(A major problem with the above, however, is that the conservative Christian has failed to learn the lesson of the churches of Galatia, the leaven of the Pharisees, whereby those who start out on the principle of Grace only, soon succumb to attempt to continue their relationship with God based in ongoing good works--when what Paul stressed in Galatians was that the continuence must be the same as the onset, i.e. "just" continue to receive more Graces (UNearned Gifts from God) one after the other.)

On the other hand, the "liberal" Christian, AKA those of "mainline denominations" (although of course there are always minority exceptions from either "side"), always will assert that there's some thing, some ritual, some act, some type of good works, that a person must do (or have someone do for them) for them to have a relationship with God. They may also believe in a "rebirth," and likely do, but will believe that such happens in conjunction with what a person does through either voluntary (e.g. self-denials) and/or involuntary (e.g. infant baptism) participation, and such would also most likely not belive in an instantaneous "born-again experience."

But there are no clear-cut denominations representing either groups, and we can only generalize. For example, what may have at one time been an Evangelical or charismatic denomination by every definition of the Word, after a couple or three generations from the time of its inception the congregartion may then be composed off strictly offspring of the originals, who did not have the same spiritual manifestations as their forefathers and who therefore are just, through good works of their flesh, feigning what was once experienced in their ancestors by unfeigned works of the Spirit.

Also the exception: many mainline denominations, if not by now all, have had in small nooks and crannies of their entities, "reforms" or "revivals" or "renewals" where a particular congregation and/or minority group of people have had a return to relating to God through miraculous manifestations of Grace instead of just liturgy and ordinances and the like.

As to what each believes in particular, as it relates to the thread starter's questions, I will leave that to others.

As I said, the above in a nutshell (and therefore is limited), bj

[Scott1]

brotherjim,


Great post, but I would like to make a few comments:

In a nutshell: a "conservative" Christian, AKA one of the "Evangelical and charismatic Christians,"

I would have to say that is not even close....... many of the Protestant evangelical/charismatic Christians in the US are becoming "open and affirming" , that is to celebrate homosexual unions and abortion "rights".

I assume that your church is not like that (thank God) but don't assume that all those that profess to be "born again" think like you do.

On the other hand, the "liberal" Christian, AKA those of "mainline denominations"

Here again, I disagree. The Catholic Church and the Southern Baptist Conference are some of the only major Christian groups to speak out against the liberal tide that is rising in the US. "mainline" denominations might not be your thing, but please remember that it is the number and size of these groups that can affect real change in the country/world........

Something to think about I hope.

Peace be with you,
Scott

[brotherjim]

Greetings, Scott/SOGFPP.

Thank you for being very gentle and "conservative" {-_-} in your comments directed towards me.

Your points were well-taken.

The thread's starter, however, painted with a very broad brush. It asked as to theology, political views, etc.--i.e the whole gamut of life and thought.

I, on the other hand, narrowed down my post to the theological perspective, choosing to leave the other facets of life to others.

But you are of course correct, that although we as Evangelical and charismatic Christians have a conservative theological view as an ideal, in practice we have succumbed to liberality--to which affect I believe I included a couple of "disclaimers."

Also true is that although "mainliners" have a liberal ideal (in the opinion of the Evang./char. of course) of how someone can have a relationship with God, certainly among them is a huge constituency that is highly moral, and furthermore from that segment again a large populace that's highly politically active regarding those morals.

As for me, my only concern is how someone can inherit eternal Life. There will always be a majority of seemingly well-meaning "good" (in the eyes of the world) people who will fight our wars and vote for conservative political candidates (and thank God for them), that all I have to do as a member of a very small minority is seek the Kingdom of God and the perfection of His Love in me by Grace alone (i.e. "HIS righteousness")--what the Word clearly states as being the only Way to eternal Life. Such is the great and wonderous "freedom in Christ" spoken of in the Word--or so I allege. To wit (1 Jn. 2:3-5):

"And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His Commandments.

"He that says, ‘I know Him,’ and does not keep His Commandments, is a liar, and the Truth is not in him.

"But whoever keeps His Word, in him verily is the Love of God perfected: hereby we know that we are in Him."

But the Word also declares:

"By the works [of the flesh] of the Law, no man is [ever] justified in His Sight."

and:

". . . by Grace . . . so that no man can boast."

So our eternal salvation can be known to be waiting for us when we are found living in obedience to the Commandments, and such obedience is the eventual result of us TRULY knowing the true and complete Christ Jesus of the Bible and being perfected in His Love, and all that ALL by God's Grace and Spirit.

"Peace and GRACE BE MULTIPLIED onto you," bj

[brotherjim]

P.S. Scott, btw, I have no "thing." And not to at all patronize you (after all, you may yourself despise the man), my favorite "TV evangelist" is Ralph Martin, a lay Catholic minister. I first suspected He knew the true path to the Heavenly Father when I observed His unfeigned Joy of the Lord and Meekness and Love on TV, and this suspected true Gospel was then confirmed in me when I procured and read a copy of the free booklet he offers on his broadcasts, it offering an explanation of The Way.

bj

[Scott1]

bj,

God bless you for your post..... loved those Bible verses!

Peace,
Scott

ps ... I think Ralph is great.... glad you are open enough to listen to a Catholic minister!

[true blood]

I Corinthians 6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither adulterers, nor effeminate [lesbian], nor abusers of themselves with mankind [homo], nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.