Did Jesus abolish the law? (Jesus Christ, Earth, gospel, Kingdom)

[fromthe heart]

Sorry...Matt.22:37-40

[Scuba Pete]

You know,

that passage GREATLY simplified the whole law. For once, we could understand just what the law was all about.

Galations 3:24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. 26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

He is also clear that he came to what??? To FULFILL the law.

Consider Paul's words:

Galations 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11 Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

The Judaizers were trying to do just this... re-introduce the law into Christianity. The old law of DEATH has been replaced by the new law of LIFE. Jesus paid the entire note in full and we are the reicipients of his Grace.

The Judaizers weren't interpreting Christ as I have, nor were they making the argument I have. They were arguing that obedience to the Law made one righteous and was the principle means of salvation. It's very different from what I've asserted, and if the Law has no authority over the Christian, then it has been abolished. We can argue semantics on it, but "fulfill" is to bring to complete or bring something to its intended purpose. Abolish means to make of no effect. To say that the Law is not authoritative to the Christian is to argue that it is abolished in contradistinction to the teaching of Christ.

Christ fulfilled the Law. He gave us the full means of interpreting it, and was the fulfillment of the prophecies and foreshadowing of Christ it contained. He promised that "not one jot nor one tittle" will pass away, and that it will last longer than "heaven and earth." Christ asserted that anyone who disobeys the Law and teaches others to do so will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven. He then spends a considerable amount of time explaining interpretation of the Law.

As you have pointed out Paul brings up the topic of whether the Law has no authority over the Christian if we aren't under it:

Therefore by works of the law no flesh shall be justified in His sight, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God apart from the law has been revealed, being witnessed to by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and upon all those that believe. For there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation through faith in His blood, for a demonstration of His righteousness through the passing over of the sins having previously occurred, in the forbearance of God, for a demonstration of His righteousness in the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. Through what law? Of works? No, but through the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? But is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, also of Gentiles, since there is one God who will justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcised through faith. Therefore do we nullify the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. -- Romans 3.20-31

He argues the same theology as the passage in Galatians above. However, he proposes the theological solution you have accepted at the end, and he rejects it firmly. He goes from saying that not just does faith in Christ not nullify the Law, but it goes further and establishes it. How can it establish it if it has no more authority on the Christian? Paul didn't mean his statement that way, and we know this, because he repeatedly makes use of the Law in order to prove his theological and moral points. When he does so, he considers it binding on Christians.

The problem with the Judaizers was that they believed obedience to it would make them righteous and thus save them. Paul is arguing against that theology, but he is not trying to undermine the authority of the Law. He teaches that it was given to be our steward so that it could point out sin, but that it brought death in that role (looking forward to Christ of course). It no longer has that authority (Gal. 3.19ff.).

Paul makes very claear where he stands on the Law, though. The faith in Christ will establish it. Christ promised nothing would pass from it and condemned anybody who would teach others to disregard it. He claimed to fulfill it (which is the custodian aspect Paul mentions), and He was quite clear on this. The problem that Paul wrote against wasn't that the Law had no authority, but rather, that it didn't make us righteous: only faith in Christ does that. He never advocated abolishing the Law (which is making it of no effect or authority).

[Dr. Khan]

Originally Posted by Lostinthisworld

Are you saying the law is paid in full ?
So we can say, do and act like swine and still get into heaven as long as we have faith.
If so, wont this world go into a downward sprial ?

You are free from the condemnation of the law to serve the Lord Jesus. Those in Christ are given a glimpse of the glory in him this is reward and it is persued by love. Jeremiah 31:31-34 is the new covenant prophesied. We enter into the Abrahamic blessing. This is missed by most today, settling for less(religiousity) rather than the great blessing which is hid from those that are lost. Paul said if our gospel be hid it is hid to them that are lost: the god of this world has blinded their minds. 2Cor.3-4.

[Dr. Khan]

Originally Posted by wellmanj

Interesting. I agree Jesus "fulfilled" the requirements of the law, but to say He "abolished" the law itself is something totally different.

Jesus abolished the enmity(hatred) created by our waywardness(disobedience) through the ignorance that was in us. Every time we step into an ant bed we get bitten. We are by nature transgressors in God's Kingdom, though we can't see Him. The New covenant allows us to partisipate in Abraham's blessing as we are transformed from glory to glory even by the Spirit of the Lord.

[Dr. Khan]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

Why, then, is the Old Testament included in the Holy Bible? Is it just a rather long historical preface?

The Old Testament is still in effect there are prophesys still to be fulfilled, and patterns to observe and become, throught the faith that is in Jesus. We should see the ways of Abraham, And all those to many to mention here that should be the ones we should emulate as they demonstrate how to win the victory, as mentioned in Hebrews11.

[Dr. Khan]

Originally Posted by fromthe heart

Pardon me...jumping in here with a question...Didn't Jesus still say we were to obey the laws of the two commandments Matt.20:37-40 and didn't Jesus speak about the law in respect to how you treat your mom and dad, and about stealing and coveting??? and the rest of the last of the commandments? Doesn't that say we are to still obey the commandments so that others can know us by our fruits?

We are free from the condemnation of the Law, we still observe to do it, though through the love created in us by Jesus' blood. We are new creatures Ephesians 2:13-22. These ten verses I have spoken to myself thousands of times.

[Scuba Pete]

My mortgage will also last forever. But once it's paid for in full, I am no longer under it's obligations.

Do I continue to send in payments? But it's still a legal document. It was not abolished. Why am I free of it??? Because I have FULFILLED it's obligations.

Under Mosaical Law, sin required a sacrifice. Why no more sacrifices under Christianity?

Hebrews 7:17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'" 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said : "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

The new has supplanted the old. This is why Jesus died!

[Lostinthisworld]

You should not judge me but pray for me, am I not right
Your quote was ""You hypocrites" sounds like a judgement to me !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[No*s]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

My mortgage will also last forever. But once it's paid for in full, I am no longer under it's obligations.

Do I continue to send in payments? But it's still a legal document. It was not abolished. Why am I free of it??? Because I have FULFILLED it's obligations.

And the mortgage passes away. This is exactly the type of "fulfilled" Christ absolutely denied He was doing. Christ said that not one jot or tittle would pass away and He who asserted that anyone who transgresses the Law and teaches others to do so would be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Under Mosaical Law, sin required a sacrifice. Why no more sacrifices under Christianity?

Hebrews 7:17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: `You are a priest forever.'" 22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. 26 Such a high priest meets our need--one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27 Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.
Hebrews 8:6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said : "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, `Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

The new has supplanted the old. This is why Jesus died!

The Law of Grace is better. Christ is the center of everything. Christ makes us righteous, not the Law. This passage doesn't argue against what I've stated.

Why no sacrifices? Because they foreshadowed the sacrifice of Christ. When Christ came, the prophecy of their practiced was completed, and now the Eucharist is done looking back. That doesn't mean the Law is of no effect. We still have the Eucharist. The Law is still in the Bible. Christ still taught that it would never pass away and that the person who transgresses it and teaches others to do so will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Has the Law been done away with? This passage asserts a new covenant, a better one, but it uses the Old Covenant. It says that it is obselete and will "soon disappear," but it has not disappeared. It says that Christ will put His Law into the hearts of His people, but this doesn't mean that the Old Law is of no more use and has no authority. The passage asserts that Christ has made a better covenant and all authority stems from Christ. The Law still has not passed away, because Christ promised this would not happen till Heaven and Earth passed away.

It works quite well with the Pauline theology I outlined, and you're also using passages arguing against a position different than mine. The Judaizers believed obedience to the Law made us righteous, but Christ pointed out that righteousness and unrighteousness proceed from the heart. He revamped how we read, apply, and interpret the Law, because we must forever do so in light of Him. None of what I said is a target of these passages, and I don't think the author of Hebrews would be so bold as to ignore the teachings of Christ.

Again, Christ taught that He did not come to abolish the Law (your fulfillment has the same effect as abolition), and He asserted that anyone who goes about disobeying the Law and teaches others to do the same will be least in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I don't think we're going to get any further, though. You feel that St. Paul established a Law, rather than a guideline, on bishops and that the Church is in stark violation of it, no matter how I interpret it. I feel you are doing the same thing with Christ's teachings and even Paul's teachings. I can't persuade you, and you won't persuade me, so I think we've gone as far as we can and won't ever see eye to eye.