The Clerical Collar (Jesus, priests, ritual, churches, LDS)

[Green Kepi]

Originally Posted by sojourner

This is a very common misperception. The collar isn't worn as a sign of importance, or "specialness." It's worn as a sign of humility and servitude.

In the time of the first bishops, the vestments were the same as any other Roman official...so the manner of dress was not different.

Perception (?)...maybe...I understand its purpose; however, what Jesus was speaking of was that in the Spiritual Realm, there is no higher or better. Elders, deacons, preachers refers to their function or work, not to their status. All Christians should display signs of humility and servitude as "priests". Don't need a collar to do that. In Matthew 23, where Jesus was condemning the religious leaders, and mentioned "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi" or "Father"...have you noticed the term Rabbi was not found in the Old Testament? That name was made up by men...maybe that's what He means as He speaks in Mark 7:8. As in Colossians 2:8...Paul writes don't do it. Don't stray from the simple teachings. Don't separate yourselves. The false teachers that Paul was addressing actually were the beginning of the Monks...that would later separate themselves from society.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Green Kepi

Perception (?)...maybe...I understand its purpose; however, what Jesus was speaking of was that in the Spiritual Realm, there is no higher or better. Elders, deacons, preachers refers to their function or work, not to their status. All Christians should display signs of humility and servitude as "priests". Don't need a collar to do that. In Matthew 23, where Jesus was condemning the religious leaders, and mentioned "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi" or "Father"...have you noticed the term Rabbi was not found in the Old Testament? That name was made up by men...maybe that's what He means as He speaks in Mark 7:8. As in Colossians 2:8...Paul writes don't do it. Don't stray from the simple teachings. Don't separate yourselves. The false teachers that Paul was addressing actually were the beginning of the Monks...that would later separate themselves from society.

BZZZZZT ... Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you...
The beginning of the monks can actually be traced back to the Essenes -- the keepers of of Dead Sea Scrolls. It is speculated that Jesus associated himself with the Essenes. Therefore, Jesus was a monk. Therefore, Jesus was a false teacher...

The Christian beginnings of cloistered communities were the "widows" spoken of by Paul. These were women whose husbands had died, leaving them with no means of support or security. They banded together into closed communities for such purposes, and were supported by the early Church.

Mark 7:8 isn't talking about clothing. It's addressing the issue of overriding God's commandments with human interpretations.

Of course we don't need a collar to live a life of humility and service. However, since the ordained ministry is largely a representative ministry, it's nice to be able to easily identfy those who have been called to this specialized ministry within the whole baptismal ministry of the Church. It's also a nice physical reminder for the person so called, and for the Church that called her/him. Symbols are not necessary, but they're useful.

We're not to separate ourselves? We are separated out simply by virtue of being a holy people, baptized into the one Body of Christ (the word "holy" means separated).

[Charity]

Originally Posted by sojourner

BZZZZZT ... Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you...
The beginning of the monks can actually be traced back to the Essenes -- the keepers of of Dead Sea Scrolls. It is speculated that Jesus associated himself with the Essenes. Therefore, Jesus was a monk. Therefore, Jesus was a false teacher...

The Christian beginnings of cloistered communities were the "widows" spoken of by Paul. These were women whose husbands had died, leaving them with no means of support or security. They banded together into closed communities for such purposes, and were supported by the early Church.

Mark 7:8 isn't talking about clothing. It's addressing the issue of overriding God's commandments with human interpretations.

Of course we don't need a collar to live a life of humility and service. However, since the ordained ministry is largely a representative ministry, it's nice to be able to easily identfy those who have been called to this specialized ministry within the whole baptismal ministry of the Church. It's also a nice physical reminder for the person so called, and for the Church that called her/him. Symbols are not necessary, but they're useful.

We're not to separate ourselves? We are separated out simply by virtue of being a holy people, baptized into the one Body of Christ (the word "holy" means separated).

IICor 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, I am interested in your theories. May God's blessings be upon you....... Charity

[Charity]

I am sorry I forgot to comment on these points you made...You said a representative ministry...Is this that you mean that they are called by God and that they are to be the leader of the church? This is what being a pastor is really about....
I'm not sure what you mean by Baptismal ministry....I have never seen that as a separate ministry (at least in the protestant churches) I am not nit picking , if there is something like this I was just curious so please enlighten me....


You also said something about about (clothing, collars,etc) as a physical reminder for the so called person and for the church that called him/her.

We are blessed when God puts a call on our life, so I don't think anyone could ever forget that. I don't think anyone can just go out and say I want to be a preacher, I think it is definitely a call from God that you feel in your heart, you know it's God.....I have seen times when a lot of people have gotten this call wrong and you can tell it. I have always believed this. What I mean is they let S E L F get in the way. They thought God said preach for US when really He was saying Drive the church BUS...It's something that needs much prayer before taking on an awsome responsible and answering to God for every word you speak..




Respectfully Charity

[Green Kepi]

BZZZZZT ... Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you...

Always...one in every discussion....

[lunamoth]

It seems to me that whether one wears a collar or not, a business suit, jeans, or cassock, the important thing is that we all follow Christ. I don't think we need to criticize each other over a silly thing like a collar. Katzpur asked a good question, I don't she meant to stir a debate.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men. 19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. 22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin. (Romans 14)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

It seems to me that whether one wears a collar or not, a business suit, jeans, or cassock, the important thing is that we all follow Christ. I don't think we need to criticize each other over a silly thing like a collar. Katzpur asked a good question, I don't she meant to stir a debate.

Thanks, Luna. I didn't mean to stir up a debate. That's why I asked the question in the Christian DIR forum. Maybe people ought to take note of that before they start throwing punches. Pics your fights, guys. Jeesh!

[spiritually inclined]

Wow....What an incredible amount of legalistic garbage over a freaking collar.

Jesus, I think, was probably speaking about the Pharisees and their self-righteousness. They wear special clothes, and yet they are legalistic, judgmental, exclusive.

Apparently, those attributes can be present even without a collar.

James

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Charity

I am sorry I forgot to comment on these points you made...You said a representative ministry...Is this that you mean that they are called by God and that they are to be the leader of the church? This is what being a pastor is really about....
I'm not sure what you mean by Baptismal ministry....I have never seen that as a separate ministry (at least in the protestant churches) I am not nit picking , if there is something like this I was just curious so please enlighten me....


You also said something about about (clothing, collars,etc) as a physical reminder for the so called person and for the church that called him/her.

We are blessed when God puts a call on our life, so I don't think anyone could ever forget that. I don't think anyone can just go out and say I want to be a preacher, I think it is definitely a call from God that you feel in your heart, you know it's God.....I have seen times when a lot of people have gotten this call wrong and you can tell it. I have always believed this. What I mean is they let S E L F get in the way. They thought God said preach for US when really He was saying Drive the church BUS...It's something that needs much prayer before taking on an awsome responsible and answering to God for every word you speak..




Respectfully Charity

By virtue of our baptism, every Christian is called to the whole ministry of the Church, which is the people of God. The ordained ministry, clerical ministry, (whatever term you wish to use), is not a different ministry from the baptismal ministry to which all Christians are called. It is part of that ministry -- an outgrowth of that ministry. It is representative, in that clergy represent the Church to the people, the people to the Church, the Church to the world, and the world to the Church, as well as representing Christ in a special way. We are not holier, higher, more special, etc. than any other Christian person.

Our call to this ministry, which has always been seen by the Church as set apart for the specific purpose of leading God's people, is a call both from God, and from the Church.

The collar is a sign that a person has been specifically called out from the people for this ministry. It is a sign to her or him of that call, and a sign that they are yoked to Christ in a very specific way. It is not necessary. It is not a sign of specialness, but a sign of specificity.

Thanks for your questions and comments.