Hell: Eternal Suffering or Temporary Punishment (Jesus Christ, ritual, Latter-Day Saints, reject)

[Katzpur]

Since someone raised this question on another thread, and I could foresee a reply from me as taking the thread pretty far off topic, I thought I'd start a new thread instead. Basically, the question was, "According to your belief system, is Hell one of eternal suffering or a place of temporary punishment as a means of correcting behavior?"

Originally Posted by mball1297

Hell is really the part I've always had the most problem with. I assume your Hell is one of eternal suffering, and if that's wrong, forgive and correct me. Creating life as we know it on Earth is one thing. I can deal with us having suffering here to experience good, and all that. My problem comes in when you say that God created us with the possibility of us sinning, and then condemns us to eternal, as in never-ending, suffering if we do sin. If there was no such thing as Hell, I'd be much more inclined to believe in a Christian version of things.

Punishment is necessary, I think, but it should only be there to coorect behavior. If a child does something wrong, you tell them No, and maybe give them a timeout, or ground them, etc. You don't punish them for the rest fo their life. The idea is to correct the behavior, so that they will lead a better life, not watch them suffer.

According to LDS doctrine, when a person dies, he does not immediately go to Heaven. Instead, the spirit which leaves his body at death is received into an intermediate state of existance known as the Spirit World. The Spirit World is divided into two parts: Paradise for the righteous (including such people as the thief who repented on the cross and whom Christ told He say that day in Paradise) and the Spirit Prison for the wicked (which place Christ was said to have visited in spirit form during the three days His body lay in the tomb after His crucifixion). I have heard the Spirit World compared to Purgatory (which would be a familiar concept to you, as a Catholic). I suppose they're similar in a way, but they're also different.

We believe that everyone who has ever lived will remain in the Spirit World after their deaths, until they are resurrected and are called to stand before God at the Last Judgment. While they are there, they will have the opportunity to continue to learn and grow spiritually. Those who never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ (i.e. people in parts of the world where Christianity had not spread during their lifetimes or people who lived in countries where Christianity was forbidden to be taught) will have the opportunity to hear it in the Spirit World and to accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf.

The wicked -- who will be spending their time in the Spirit World in a state of agony and torment because of their sins -- will undoubtedly feel as if they are in Prison or Hell. This state of torment need not be permanent, though. As they come to a realization that they can be forgiven for their sins, gain the faith necessary to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and repent of their past wrongdoings, they will be released from Prison/Hell and be permitted to enjoy the peace and rest of those in Paradise.

When at last every single person who has ever lived has had the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ -- either during this life or in the Spirit World -- they will be judged and held accountable for their choices and ultimate decision. They will then be admitted into Heaven with their newly resurrected, immortal bodies. The Latter-day Saints can be said to have the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell of any Christian denomination. We believe that almost everyone who has ever lived will ultimately be received into Heaven, but that Heaven cannot be thought of as a one-size-fits-all kind of place. We believe in differing "degrees of glory" within Heaven, and that people will end up spending eternity in whichever one they are worthy of. Even the worse people, though, the ones who never accepted Christ while in the Spirit Prison, will not be banished to Hell. By the time the Last Judgment comes to pass, they, having rejected Christ's willingness to suffer for them, will have been made to pay the price for their disobedience and rebellion. They, as God's children, will be given a portion of the reward He had in store for them, just not anywhere near what they might have received had they been the slightest bit interested.

The only people who we believe will end up in Hell for eternity are those who, having received a perfect knowledge of God, want no part of Him and deny everything they which they know for sure to be true.

I hope this helps you understand the LDS doctrine about Heaven and Hell a little better.

[Magic Man]

That does make it a lot clearer, thank you.

The only problem I have with that is that why would anyone possibly deny or refuse God once they have seen the afterlife? As it stands here, we don't have any assurance that there is an afterlife. If you believe, then you have faith, but there's no actual proof. Therefore, it comes down to just that, having faith or not. If I get to the other side and see that there is a Heaven and Hell, and God, etc., then I'd accept him in a heartbeat.

[Francine]

Originally Posted by mball1297

If I get to the other side and see that there is a Heaven and Hell, and God, etc., then I'd accept him in a heartbeat.

That's not what God wants, just a purely mental "acceptance", he wants you to share some of the blessings that he has given you with those who lack those blessings.

[michel]

Originally Posted by mball1297

That does make it a lot clearer, thank you.

The only problem I have with that is that why would anyone possibly deny or refuse God once they have seen the afterlife? As it stands here, we don't have any assurance that there is an afterlife. If you believe, then you have faith, but there's no actual proof. Therefore, it comes down to just that, having faith or not. If I get to the other side and see that there is a Heaven and Hell, and God, etc., then I'd accept him in a heartbeat.

Amusingly cynical; it is a thought at which I have smiled at a few times...............

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Since someone raised this question on another thread, and I could foresee a reply from me as taking the thread pretty far off topic, I thought I'd start a new thread instead. Basically, the question was, "According to your belief system, is Hell one of eternal suffering or a place of temporary punishment as a means of correcting behavior?"

As you know, Kathryn, my spiritual understanding is one that does not fit in with most religions; I believe that hell is "Not being at one with God"; maybe just not being able to be returned to God. In a way, I can see that as Life on Earth; we are in the "valley of the shadow of death" and I believe that to be anywhere where we are not "with God" is hell.

According to LDS doctrine, when a person dies, he does not immediately go to Heaven. Instead, the spirit which leaves his body at death is received into an intermediate state of existance known as the Spirit World. The Spirit World is divided into two parts: Paradise for the righteous (including such people as the thief who repented on the cross and whom Christ told He say that day in Paradise) and the Spirit Prison for the wicked (which place Christ was said to have visited in spirit form during the three days His body lay in the tomb after His crucifixion). I have heard the Spirit World compared to Purgatory (which would be a familiar concept to you, as a Catholic). I suppose they're similar in a way, but they're also different.

I saw the paralells between your "spirit world" and Purgatory, but (I may well be wrong), I thought that the idea of such a place had been "dropped".

We believe that everyone who has ever lived will remain in the Spirit World after their deaths, until they are resurrected and are called to stand before God at the Last Judgment. While they are there, they will have the opportunity to continue to learn and grow spiritually. Those who never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ (i.e. people in parts of the world where Christianity had not spread during their lifetimes or people who lived in countries where Christianity was forbidden to be taught) will have the opportunity to hear it in the Spirit World and to accept Jesus Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf.

This sounds "right" to me; I have always thought it would not be within God to dismiss someone because he was not of the "correct" religion.

The wicked -- who will be spending their time in the Spirit World in a state of agony and torment because of their sins -- will undoubtedly feel as if they are in Prison or Hell. This state of torment need not be permanent, though. As they come to a realization that they can be forgiven for their sins, gain the faith necessary to believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior, and repent of their past wrongdoings, they will be released from Prison/Hell and be permitted to enjoy the peace and rest of those in Paradise.

People are not wicked (at least as far as I am concerned)...Love the sinner, hate the sin? But a recidivist sinner (and I count myself as one such) I believe, sins because he is weak. However, God made us weak when he put us here to inhabit Earth, and since we know that Christ's sacrifice was for the absolution of our sins, I believe those will be forgiven - especially for those - say psychotics- (who are unable to have a conscience)........It would seem "un-Godly" of God to punish people who sin because they are ill.

When at last every single person who has ever lived has had the opportunity to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ -- either during this life or in the Spirit World -- they will be judged and held accountable for their choices and ultimate decision. They will then be admitted into Heaven with their newly resurrected, immortal bodies. The Latter-day Saints can be said to have the biggest Heaven and the littlest Hell of any Christian denomination. We believe that almost everyone who has ever lived will ultimately be received into Heaven, but that Heaven cannot be thought of as a one-size-fits-all kind of place. We believe in differing "degrees of glory" within Heaven, and that people will end up spending eternity in whichever one they are worthy of. Even the worse people, though, the ones who never accepted Christ while in the Spirit Prison, will not be banished to Hell. By the time the Last Judgment comes to pass, they, having rejected Christ's willingness to suffer for them, will have been made to pay the price for their disobedience and rebellion. They, as God's children, will be given a portion of the reward He had in store for them, just not anywhere near what they might have received had they been the slightest bit interested.

I can accept that as "pretty close" to what I believe (except that, as you know, I believe in re-incarnation - to me, that gives he who sinned "Too much" the opportunity to come back down, and have another shot at it.

The only people who we believe will end up in Hell for eternity are those who, having received a perfect knowledge of God, want no part of Him and deny everything they which they know for sure to be true.

I must admit that although that is my belief, like our friend who posted here, I really cannot think of such an 'awkward' soul.......

I hope this helps you understand the LDS doctrine about Heaven and Hell a little better.

It does; thank you, but we have been here before, and I think) remarkably found that we both feel much the same on certain aspects - just as I have found much the same with the Roman Catholics. The naming of different Religions is something that grieves me; I believe that "all roads lead to God", and it was only this morning that I was praying for some acceptance of that idea - unlikely as it is - by all on Earth.

Religion is not about being better than the other guy who believes in something different; indeed, I often find that religious differences are most often "picky " about what seems like nit picking to outsiders (though I know that the people embroyled in such arguments and differences see it as being essential to their religion. I think that is a shame, but "Each to his own".........

[Scott C.]

Originally Posted by mball1297

The only problem I have with that is that why would anyone possibly deny or refuse God once they have seen the afterlife?

That's a good question. I think that it takes more than knowing that God exists and that there is an afterlife, to wilingly submit our will to God's.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by mball1297

The only problem I have with that is that why would anyone possibly deny or refuse God once they have seen the afterlife?

Beats me. I know I sure couldn't. But this premise alone would explain why we believe so few will.

As it stands here, we don't have any assurance that there is an afterlife. If you believe, then you have faith, but there's no actual proof. Therefore, it comes down to just that, having faith or not. If I get to the other side and see that there is a Heaven and Hell, and God, etc., then I'd accept him in a heartbeat.

Of course there isn't proof. I wouldn't even attempt to argue that there is. I think that even in the Spirit World, we are going to have to have faith. Remember, I said that for the righteous, existance in the Spirit World will be Paradise. It will be a place of peace and rest. But it's not the same as Heaven; we still won't be in God's presence. We will still be pretty much the same individuals we are now, except that we will not have a physical body during that period of time. Those who are stubborn and hard-headed here in mortality will be stubborn and hard-headed in the Spirit World. You might accept God and Jesus in a heartbeat in Paradise, but there are a lot of people for whom it will take much longer. The one real positive thing about how we believe things will be in Paradise is that we will no longer be encumbered by all of the social, cultural and political baggage we have to haul around with us during mortality. Those who really want to know the truth will undoubtedly be able to see things more clearly in the Spirit World.

[Katzpur]

Michel, thank you so much for your comments. (We really miss hearing from you as often as we used to.)

Originally Posted by michel

I saw the paralells between your "spirit world" and Purgatory, but (I may well be wrong), I thought that the idea of such a place had been "dropped".

I think you may be getting Purgatory and Limbo mixed up. Purgatory, I am quite sure, is alive and well in Catholic theology. Limbo, on the other hand, has been "dropped" if I'm not mistaken. But as you probably know, I really prefer not to try to explain other people's religious beliefs. Since they generally don't seem to be able to explain mine very accurately, I suspect the same may be true when I try to explain theirs.

I have long felt that the doctrines of the Spirit World and Purgatory share a common source. As a Latter-day Saint, though, I believe that Purgatory is a doctrine that started out right and ended up wrong. If I understand Purgatory correctly, most who die will spend a brief time there after death, and that the purpose of the time is to purge them of their less severe sins so that they can enter Heaven. For us, not even the most righteous people who have ever lived will go straight to Heaven. Nobody will go to Heaven until the Last Judgment when we are all resurrected (i.e. our spirit re-enters our newly immortalized and perfected body).

This sounds "right" to me; I have always thought it would not be within God to dismiss someone because he was not of the "correct" religion.

Yeah, it's kind of a no-brainer to us.

People are not wicked (at least as far as I am concerned)...Love the sinner, hate the sin?

I guess it's a matter of semantics. Hitler may not have been "wicked," but I find it difficult to find a word that would describe him much better than that one.

But a recidivist sinner (and I count myself as one such) I believe, sins because he is weak. However, God made us weak when he put us here to inhabit Earth, and since we know that Christ's sacrifice was for the absolution of our sins, I believe those will be forgiven - especially for those - say psychotics- (who are unable to have a conscience)........It would seem "un-Godly" of God to punish people who sin because they are ill.

Well, I think that as far as being sinners, we're all pretty much in the same boat. I also believe that God would not punish someone for commiting a sin if the person was mentally incapable of realizing that what he was doing was wrong.

I can accept that as "pretty close" to what I believe (except that, as you know, I believe in re-incarnation - to me, that gives he who sinned "Too much" the opportunity to come back down, and have another shot at it.

This raises a couple of questions in my mind, Michel. How much sin is "too much" sin? And what about a person who maybe commits many, many sins but is truly repentent? Would your concept of "too much sin" be balanced against "too little repentance"? Also, when do you see the process of reincarnation as coming to an end? Do you see everyone as ultimately "getting it right"? And if a person cannot remember a prior life, how it is possible that his experiences in that life will be of any benefit to him the next time around?

I must admit that although that is my belief, like our friend who posted here, I really cannot think of such an 'awkward' soul.......

Which is why there will be so few of them.

It does; thank you, but we have been here before, and I think) remarkably found that we both feel much the same on certain aspects - just as I have found much the same with the Roman Catholics. The naming of different Religions is something that grieves me; I believe that "all roads lead to God", and it was only this morning that I was praying for some acceptance of that idea - unlikely as it is - by all on Earth.

I agree that it is unlikely that this will happen on earth. I also agree that it is very unfortunate.

Religion is not about being better than the other guy who believes in something different; indeed, I often find that religious differences are most often "picky " about what seems like nit picking to outsiders (though I know that the people embroyled in such arguments and differences see it as being essential to their religion. I think that is a shame, but "Each to his own".........

This paragraph deserves frubals, so I'm off to give them to you!

[Francine]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I think you may be getting Purgatory and Limbo mixed up. Purgatory, I am quite sure, is alive and well in Catholic theology. Limbo, on the other hand, has been "dropped" if I'm not mistaken.

Limbo is in the same curious undefined netherworld where Lent went when I gave up Lent for Lent.

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

The one real positive thing about how we believe things will be in Paradise is that we will no longer be encumbered by all of the social, cultural and political baggage we have to haul around with us during mortality.

I agree but it should be pointed out that we will still have our same languages, cultures that we have now in addition to the same personalities that you mentioned. Of course they will be limited by our Spirit nature.

On my mission we had a conference where Elder Oaks spoke. He related a story of a missionary who served quite a few years ago in a foreign country. This missionary was told by one of his leaders to keep up his language skills. This missionary would practice the language in front of the mirror when shaving. He grew old and died. But never again used his foreign language skills with anyone else in this life. Elder Oaks told us the reason for this was that that missionary would be teaching those people in the Spirit world who spoke that language. I wish I could remember the story better, it was really amazing.

So all you return missionaries that spoke a foreign language, keep it up. You might need it in the Spirit world.

[Melancholy]

I explained in another thread on my beliefs of Hell.
It is a place where only the most wicked will go to be purged and eventually return to God if they so wish.

Originally Posted by michel

I saw the paralells between your "spirit world" and Purgatory, but (I may well be wrong), I thought that the idea of such a place had been "dropped".
.

If I am not mistaken, Purgatory has not been dropped from the catholic doctrine only the concept that babies and children go there.