Early Christians on Pagan Influences

[angellous_evangellous]

Justin Martyr and other early Christians wrestled with other pagan writers over the nature of Christianity, namely their dependence on pagan poets, philosophers, and mythology.

I will post here some examples:

Justin Martyr
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

"If, therefore, on some points we teach the same things as the poets and philosophers whom you honour, and on other points are fuller and more divine in our teaching, and if we alone afford proof of what we assert, why are we unjustly hated more than all others?"

[angellous_evangellous]

Justin Martyr

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. "

In the next several chapters Justin gives more examples...

[Oberon]

Shame on you! Those don't look like your own translations!


I have always found how early christians dealt with pagan influence interesting. On the one hand, occasionally they went to any lengths to deny such influence. On the other, they made connections between christianity and paganism that weren't really plausible just to attract pagans.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Shame on you! Those don't look like your own translations!

hahaha

[angellous_evangellous]

And from Theophilus:

ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

But what matters it whether they were before or after them? Certainly they did at all events utter things confirmatory of the prophets. Concerning the burning up of the world, Malachi the prophet foretold: “The day of the Lord cometh as a burning oven, and shall consume all the wicked.” And Isaiah: “For the wrath of God is as a violent hail-storm, and as a rushing mountain torrent.”

The Sibyl, then, and the other prophets, yea, and the poets and philosophers, have clearly taught both concerning righteousness, and judgment, and punishment; and also concerning providence, that God cares for us, not only for the living among us, but also for those that are dead: though, indeed, they said this unwillingly, for they were convinced by the truth. And among the prophets indeed, Solomon said of the dead, “There shall be healing to thy flesh, and care taken of thy bones.

And the same says David, “The bones which Thou hast broken shall rejoice.”And in agreement with these sayings was that of Timocles:—
“
The dead are pitied by the loving God.”

And the writers who spoke of a multiplicity of gods came at length to the doctrine of the unity of God, and those who asserted chance spoke also of providence; and the advocates of impunity confessed there would be a judgment, and those who denied that there is a sensation after death acknowledged that there is. Homer, accordingly, though he had said,—
“Like fleeting vision passed the soul away,”

says in another place:—
“To Hades went the disembodied soul;”

And again:—
“That I may quickly pass through Hades’ gates,
Me bury.”

And as regards the others whom you have read, I think you know with sufficient accuracy how they have expressed themselves. But all these things will every one understand who seeks the wisdom of God, and is well pleasing to Him through faith and righteousness and the doing of good works.

For one of the prophets whom we already mentioned, Hosea by name, said, “Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the Lord are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.”He, then, who is desirous of learning, should learn much.

[angellous_evangellous]

Clement of Alexandria (see the link for more examples)

ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

And what if I go over the mysteries? I will not divulge them in mockery, as they say Alcibiades did, but I will expose right well by the word of truth the sorcery hidden in them; and those so-called gods of yours, whose are the mystic rites, I shall display, as it were, on the stage of life, to the spectators of truth. The bacchanals hold their orgies in honour of the frenzied Dionysus, celebrating their sacred frenzy by the eating of raw flesh, and go through the distribution of the parts of butchered victims, crowned with snakes, shrieking out the name of that Eva by whom error came into the world. The symbol of the Bacchic orgies is a consecrated serpent. Moreover, according to the strict interpretation of the Hebrew term, the name Hevia, aspirated, signifies a female serpent.

[angellous_evangellous]

Athenagoras and Greek philosophy

ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

[Dunemeister]

"Dependence" is probably too strong a word. I'd say that the early Church fathers, all of whom were Greeks and none of whom were Jewish, used pagan intellectual categories to understand their Jewish heritage. What else were they supposed to use? Nevertheless, the ideas and theologies they produced, even if they had to be expressed using concepts learned at the foot of Plato and Aristotle, were thoroughly Jewish.

Nevertheless, I recognize that there was this love/hate relationship between the fathers and their pagan heritage. On the one hand, they saw the gospel as the fulfillment of both Jewish prophecy and pagan anticipations in philosophy. On the other hand, they sought to distance the gospel from being pagan. Thus we end up with fathers boasting that the gospel provides a divine completion of the vague, incoherent scrabblings of the philosophers (hence the surface similarity between Christian/Jewish and pagan stories); yet they argued that the source of Christianity was revelation from God without recourse to pagan sources. It's a tension that has never been fully resolved. I think we just have to live with it.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

"Dependence" is probably too strong a word. I'd say that the early Church fathers, all of whom were Greeks and none of whom were Jewish, used pagan intellectual categories to understand their Jewish heritage. What else were they supposed to use? Nevertheless, the ideas and theologies they produced, even if they had to be expressed using concepts learned at the foot of Plato and Aristotle, were thoroughly Jewish.

I disagree completely on that point. If it were thoroughly Jews, Jews would have accepted their doctrine.

Christianity was something new, with influences from Greco-Roman theology and philosophy and Hebrew traditions.

The point that I am making with this thread is that anti-Christian polemists have always over-exagerrated the nature of pagan elements in Christianity, and Christian apologists have answered their accusations both competently and incompetently.

It seems to me like every time someone finds parallels between Christianity and Greek myth (etc) they act like it's the first time these parallels have ever been noticed.

But it has been with us since the beginning.

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

I disagree completely on that point. If it were thoroughly Jews, Jews would have accepted their doctrine.

Were all Jews Sadduccees? Were all Pharisees? Were all Jews Essenes? Were all Jews Zealots? Were all Jews defectors to Rome like Josephus? No? Then perhaps it's possible for people to be using concepts and stories that are thoroughly Jewish yet disagree with other Jews.

Christianity was something new, with influences from Greco-Roman theology and philosophy and Hebrew traditions.

The "influence" from Hellenism has to do with the church fathers, all of whom were pagan before they converted. Thus they had Hellenistic intellectual categories to work with. The same was true of the gospel writers but to a lesser degree, steeped as they were in Jewish faith before they became Christian (possible exception of Luke). Yet the concern has always been to come to grips with a Jewish story and its categories.

And yes, Christianity was something new, but it was also something JEWISH. Did the first Christians have novel ways of understanding tradition? Yes. Did they cause controversy? Most certainly. But the ideas, concepts, and stories that underlie the Christian proclamation are all Jewish.

The point that I am making with this thread is that anti-Christian polemists have always over-exagerrated the nature of pagan elements in Christianity, and Christian apologists have answered their accusations both competently and incompetently.

It seems to me like every time someone finds parallels between Christianity and Greek myth (etc) they act like it's the first time these parallels have ever been noticed.

But it has been with us since the beginning.

Here we agree. There are parallels; my objection is the use of the word "dependence."