A question about John Chapter 14 (Jesus, gospel, tradition, Epistles)

[kateyes]

Well Michel

My 2 cents worth, I think alot of time and energy is spend seeking and finding symbolism in the Bible that may or may not exist. I tend to take alot of passages at face value--and consider them to mean exactly what they say. So: "In my father's house are many mansions, if it were not so I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you." In my mind he is quite simply saying--there is plenty of room for all-that this isn't something available to only a select few--but is open and available to all who chose to believe. If you chose to believe "my father's house" is synonimous with heaven--then he is saying there is room for all in heaven.

Interestingly enough I have heard this passage used as an arguement for reincarnation, the many mansions being a way of indicating way-stations or levels between lives--with each life being a stage towards becoming a more perfect soul.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

Michel,

I just interpret it as Jesus saying that there is room enough for everyone in heaven. I don't go so far as "levels" because that's not what he said.

Many mansions seems to me like it is saying there are many different places to go. I doubt anyone was concerned that God didn't have enough real estate.

[kateyes]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

Many mansions seems to me like it is saying there are many different places to go. I doubt anyone was concerned that God didn't have enough real estate.

Certainly that argument would hold today--but in the world that existed 2000 years ago, among people with little knowledge of the extent of earth and the Universe, I think it could have been a concern.

If Jesus hadn't followed with "I go to prepare....." and the bit about I am the way--I would be tempted to think he meant there are different mansions for different beliefs--but the follow-up seems to make it pretty clear--he considered belief in him as the only way.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by kateyes

Certainly that argument would hold today--but in the world that existed 2000 years ago, among people with little knowledge of the extent of earth and the Universe, I think it could have been a concern.

If Jesus hadn't followed with "I go to prepare....." and the bit about I am the way--I would be tempted to think he meant there are different mansions for different beliefs--but the follow-up seems to make it pretty clear--he considered belief in him as the only way.

It seems to me that 2000 years ago, people had more of a faith in the ability of God than today, not less but I understand how you see it that way.

I wasn't saying that there were different mansions for different beliefs, rather, there are different places for different levels of obedience.

Did you see the other scriptures I provided in my first post? What do you make of the scriptures that talk about the "third heaven" and different degree's of glory?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

Why not? Do you want there to be levels of heavenly bliss? Are you uncomfortable with the teaching that there is room in heaven for everyone?

I don't see why it has to be an either/or situation. Jesus said He would "reward every man according to his works." If greater works don't merit greater reward, what do you think He meant instead?

[kateyes]

Originally Posted by Comprehend

It seems to me that 2000 years ago, people had more of a faith in the ability of God than today, not less but I understand how you see it that way.

I wasn't saying that there were different mansions for different beliefs, rather, there are different places for different levels of obedience.

Did you see the other scriptures I provided in my first post? What do you make of the scriptures that talk about the "third heaven" and different degree's of glory?

Well, you need to know I am not a follower of Paul--I tend to discount his interpretations of things. I am open to the idea of different mansions for different levels of obedience, or as I mentioned different mansions, as waystations for a soul to develop.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by kateyes

Well, you need to know I am not a follower of Paul--I tend to discount his interpretations of things. I am open to the idea of different mansions for different levels of obedience, or as I mentioned different mansions, as waystations for a soul to develop.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that. So you don't accept all of the Bible?

How do you determine which part is from God and which is simply opinion?

[kateyes]

Thats the tricky question isn't it? I believe the Bible was inspired by God--but am enough of a realist to understand that any document that has an oral tradition that is thousands of years old is going to take some bias from the story teller.

I spent different periods in my life questioning/doubting religions, christianity and others. Without making it seem maudlin or like some great epiphany--one day I made a choice to believe (I know some would say I was saved--cannot say I go along with that either)--I just made the choice--and felt at ease with the decision to accept Jesus and HIS teachings. The problem is I don't think the Church Paul created is necessarily the Church Jesus intended--I don't know that-I have no proof of course-it is just my feeling. I think probably the Church Jesus intended was the Church of Jerusalem which was headed by his brother James--and which quietly faded away. The Jesus we see in the Gospels--doesn't seem to me to be the same as the Jesus we see in Paul's Epistles--forgive the tacky example--but its like Jesus started up this nice little bakery using organic flour and all made with loving hands. Jesus died, James was trying to hold the bakery together and along came Paul who said lets sell franchises--it will all have Jesus name--but to make it sell we need to change this, and expand that etc, etc--all of a sudden we have christianity with a capital C--with alot of fluff and very few of the original basic principles.

I tend to draw my views and beliefs from Matthew, Mark, and Luke (which agree on many points and seem to emphasize Jesus humanity). They may agree because they originated with 1 common source. John places alot of emphasis on Jesus' divinity. I tend to believe it was written later to embelish on the earlier Gospels.

Its not so much that I try to distinguish between what is from God and what is someone's opinion--its more a sense of what feels right.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by kateyes

Thats the tricky question isn't it? I believe the Bible was inspired by God--but am enough of a realist to understand that any document that has an oral tradition that is thousands of years old is going to take some bias from the story teller.

I spent different periods in my life questioning/doubting religions, christianity and others. Without making it seem maudlin or like some great epiphany--one day I made a choice to believe (I know some would say I was saved--cannot say I go along with that either)--I just made the choice--and felt at ease with the decision to accept Jesus and HIS teachings. The problem is I don't think the Church Paul created is necessarily the Church Jesus intended--I don't know that-I have no proof of course-it is just my feeling. I think probably the Church Jesus intended was the Church of Jerusalem which was headed by his brother James--and which quietly faded away. The Jesus we see in the Gospels--doesn't seem to me to be the same as the Jesus we see in Paul's Epistles--forgive the tacky example--but its like Jesus started up this nice little bakery using organic flour and all made with loving hands. Jesus died, James was trying to hold the bakery together and along came Paul who said lets sell franchises--it will all have Jesus name--but to make it sell we need to change this, and expand that etc, etc--all of a sudden we have christianity with a capital C--with alot of fluff and very few of the original basic principles.

I tend to draw my views and beliefs from Matthew, Mark, and Luke (which agree on many points and seem to emphasize Jesus humanity). They may agree because they originated with 1 common source. John places alot of emphasis on Jesus' divinity. I tend to believe it was written later to embelish on the earlier Gospels.

Its not so much that I try to distinguish between what is from God and what is someone's opinion--its more a sense of what feels right.

Ok. thanks for explaining. I understand your view now but of course I have a different one.

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by michel

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


How do you interpret the above ? I understand that a mansion is a house in itself that has many rooms; the defender's notes of the KJ Version doesn't really explain what is meant by this. So how do you interpret it?

There is an allusion to the Jewish marriage tradition there. When a marriage proposal was accepted the groom would return to his fathers house and begin building an addition. When the addition was completed to the the father's satisfaction he would send the son to get his bride.

The last supper was a marriage proposal to the church. Jesus then went to His Father to prepare a place for the church. Jesus did not know when He would return because it is up to the Father to decide the time.