I Want to be Forgiven! (Jesus, ritual, grace, hell)

[Katzpur]

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

Forgiveness is tough, very hard. But I also think we often confuse forgiveness with trust. If someone is still hurting you, or has not stopped the actions that could hurt you, it's not like you should keep saying 'it's OK, I forgive you.' Trust needs to be earned. You can forgive someone, but that does not mean you have to invite them over for dinner.

The way I see it, forgiveness is important because we need to set those burdens down. I don't think the saying above is like a quid pro quo from God. It's not like whatever grudges we carry to our grave then count as equal pain in hell, for example. We are supposed to forgive the way God does...freely and without condition. We try, we often fail, grace covers the difference.

What the passage is telling us is a truth...if we can't forgive it hurts us in the here and now. It is a burden on our heart, it affects our relationship with the person we fail to forgive and possibly others around us. We also need to learn how to forgive ourselves...the more we practice with others the more we are able to forgive ourself as well.

As far as any pain at death about any failures we had at forgiving...here's what I think it means. Before the next life we will see the outcomes of all of our actions and we will also understand the actions of others. I think it will be like pain, 'spiritual' pain, to see how things we've done hurt others, and we will also understand why others hurt us. We are all connected and the pain we suffer from the actions of others is connected to the pain we inflict...all part of living in a fallen world, so we can't really at the end of the day 'blame' anyone.

But, practically speaking, it is hard. We hand it to God, we take it back, we hand it over again, we take it back again. I think if we keep trying we can leave it in God's hands longer and longer, and then completely.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Forgiveness is tough, very hard. But I also think we often confuse forgiveness with trust. If someone is still hurting you, or has not stopped the actions that could hurt you, it's not like you should keep saying 'it's OK, I forgive you.' Trust needs to be earned. You can forgive someone, but that does not mean you have to invite them over for dinner.

Then what does it possibly mean? People often say it's NOT about that, but then, what IS it about? How can you forgive somebody if you still hold their sin against them (eg, by not allowing them into your confidence as you did before they sinned)?

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Then what does it possibly mean? People often say it's NOT about that, but then, what IS it about? How can you forgive somebody if you still hold their sin against them (eg, by not allowing them into your confidence as you did before they sinned)?

Because forgiveness and trust are not the same thing.

You can forgive someone but that does not mean you need to be near them, especially if they show no signs of changing the behavior that causes pain.

You are not holding their 'sin' against them if you don't trust them to not hurt you...you are just protecting yourself.

For example, the pedophile who wanted to be part of the UUC congregation (or was it UU?). Anyway, I can understand them forgiving him for the hurt he caused their community, but that does not mean they need to let him be around children in their congregation.

Another example. Suppose my husband abused me. I could forgive him (well, I could try to), but that would not mean I should stay in the house with him where he can abuse me.

Forgiveness is healing to the person doing the forgiving. As long as you don't forgive, you still have a wound, or a sensitive scar. I'm not saying it's easy...heck...I don't know that I could forgive someone who hurt my children...I really don't. But if I could it would benefit myself.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Because forgiveness and trust are not the same thing.

You can forgive someone but that does not mean you need to be near them, especially if they show no signs of changing the behavior that causes pain.

Ok, but again, this is what forgiveness is not. What is it? If you forgive somebody, you might not trust them, but then what DO you do that is different from when you hadn't forgiven them?

For example, the pedophile who wanted to be part of the UUC congregation (or was it UU?). Anyway, I can understand them forgiving him for the hurt he caused their community, but that does not mean they need to let him be around children in their congregation.

Another example. Suppose my husband abused me. I could forgive him (well, I could try to), but that would not mean I should stay in the house with him where he can abuse me.

Again, these are all great examples of what forgiveness isn't, but I'm interested in knowing what it is.

Forgiveness is healing to the person doing the forgiving. As long as you don't forgive, you still have a wound, or a sensitive scar. I'm not saying it's easy...heck...I don't know that I could forgive someone who hurt my children...I really don't. But if I could it would benefit myself.

How does this forgiveness manifest itself? Do you just stop feeling bad? Is it entirely internal and/or personal?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

You can forgive someone but that does not mean you need to be near them, especially if they show no signs of changing the behavior that causes pain.

You are not holding their 'sin' against them if you don't trust them to not hurt you...you are just protecting yourself.

I see what you mean, but it's so hard for me to separate forgiveness and trust. God says that when He forgives us of our sins, He'll also forget them. (At least that's what the LDS teach. Is that your belief, too?) So shouldn't our goal be to put the hurt behind us entirely? Obviously, there are some things we can't forget, and as you implied, if we continue to trust people who continue to hurt us, we're really just opening ourselves up to more hurt. There are a few people in my life who have really hurt me. Knowing they'd do the same thing again in a minute if they had the chance makes it really hard for me to forgive them. Maybe understanding why they would do some of the things they do would be a good first step.

[michel]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

It is quite funny that you should mention that; I am exactly at the other end of the scale - when I say the Lord's prayer, I can never think of anyone who has wronged me......although I can think of loads who I have wronged.

I guess I am in the habit of always making excuse for other's behaviour (if it isn't "good"), by thinking that they are under stress.....whatever.

I very rarely need to forgive others. Guess I am lucky.

[Terrywoodenpic]

Forgiveness is a strange animal....
It has nothing to do with continuing a relationship that has passed it's sell by date.
Nor has it to do with...OK I have punished you now I forgive you...
It can be, I forgive you and I am moving on.
Or it could be I forgive you Come and have a HUG.
Forgiveness is always the end of something or situation, and the beginning of some thing else.
It is a turning point and a wiping clean.
It should tie up loose ends, with nothing to carry forward.
When God says I forgive you ... it is done an dusted...forgotten.
This is the way we have to do it.
If the need for forgiveness has not ended, Forgiveness can not be given.

When we ask forgiveness of God we must first repent.
Forgiveness and repentance go together.

so I suspect must the forgiveness we give, be in answer to repentance; to have true worth for those we forgive.