I Want to be Forgiven! (Jesus, ritual, grace, hell)

[w00t]

Unless someone wants to be forgiven for their actions I don't think you can forgive them.

[Aqualung]

For those who say that forgiveness does not mean returning to trust somebody, how do you explain the answer Jesus gave when asked how many times one should forgive your brother. He said "Seventy times seven" times. To me, this implies that one is putting themselves in the position to be harmed in the same way as they were before. Jesus didn't say, "You should forgive them, but hopefully you'll only have to forgive them a couple of times because after a certain number of times you should just avoid them at all costs". These two things, in my mind, seem incompatible.

[Fluffy]

The views of an ex-Christian who carries on the tradition of universal forgiveness:
I am a very strong advocate of universal forgiveness and have a wide variety of reasons for my conviction in it. I'm not sure if all of them square with Christian theology but I know at least some Christians who each believe some of these reasons. I know this is the Christian forum but on the off chance that these beliefs might be useful, I'm going to post them anyway. I fully understand if this is breaking the rules and my post needs to be deleted.

I think this passage if read literally, clearly shows at least 1 instance when it is okay (at least for God) not to forgive: when a person does not forgive others. This I believe is crucial since it indicates that their are in fact criteria in which it is okay not to forgive people but that we do not have the authority to make such judgements since they are to be left to God alone. Non-forgiveness is therefore left to God whilst we do not have the right to decide whether a person is deserving of forgiveness.

Depending on your view of heaven and hell, how forgiving you see God will vary but my understanding of LDS theology is that God is viewed as very, if not universally, forgiving which is a view that I share. This indicates that non-forgiveness is not merely out of the domain of human action but also ungodly as well making it not just a question of needing poor judgement but also an ungodly nature.

I often say that the right to judge and the right to not forgive are reserved for God alone and since I don't believe in God, I feel this states pretty clearly that these are not activities that should be happening. In light of belief in a loving, forgiving God, I feel a similar conclusion can be reached.

I think that the inability to forgive is an imperfection that humanity as a whole suffers from. It is clear that one's ability to forgive is correlated with the degree to which one has been wronged. We then make up our criteria in order to provide some sort of objective judgement to our decision not to forgive. We only say that we cannot forgive the unrepentent, for example, when an unrepentent person has wronged us to a certain degree. If a person wrongs us even further then we may fail to forgive even a repentent person and so the inherent bias in our criteria is revealed.

I also feel that an unforgiving attitude does not make other people try to be better. In fact more often than not it merely alienates them from a more productive path causing them to wrong us further. Therefore, if we truly wish a person to be repentent then we should first forgive that person so that they might be repentent. In this sense forgiveness is an affirmation that the wrong doer has the ability to change and empowers them to take this path.

Forgiveness is also good for you. You can still advocate good and campaign against evil whilst forgiving evil of its faults. Forgiveness is about preventing evil from having a hold on us and saying we are strong enough to deal with it in a good way rather than stooping to evil to combat evil.

I am quite a "theoretical" person so I find reasons like I give above enable me to then act according to those reasons. Sure my emotional hurt at being wronged or my sense of justice in the face of unrepentence can make it harder to forgive but reminding myself why I think the way I do helps me to overcome these emotions.

Another thing I do to try and overcome my inability to forgive is to put myself in the shoes of the person who has done wrong. I don't believe that humans are inherently evil, however, and so whilst I might not find a person's actions justifiable or even understandable, I can always point to a cause other than an evil nature and this goes some way to helping me to forgive them.

[Darkness]

How exactly have you sinned against God Katzpur?

[joeboonda]

Clara Barton never harbored resentments. One time a freind recalled to her a cruel thing that had happened to her some years previously, but Clara seemed not to remember it.
"Don't you remember the wrong that was done to you?" asked the friend.
"No," answered Clara. "I distinctly remember forgetting that."

In Romans 12, God tell us,

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

One thing that helps me to forgive others is the underlined verse. First, let me say, I pray for the one who offended me that they will trust Christ and be saved and forgiven, thus they should realize and apologize for their offense toward me. But, to those who don't, we know God is just and will judge each person accordingly, and unfortunately for the impenitent wicked, this will be God's vengeance. So, there is no burden to "get them back", because that is for the Lord to decide.

I take comfort in knowing that I am a sinner as we all are sinners, that it is our nature to sin, (being a sinner saved by grace that is now my old nature, but still there), and so I am not wholly taken by surprise when one does sin against me, its to be expected.

One other thing. Remember the man who owed much but begged for mercy so the master forgave the entire debt, but who later beat his servant and had him jailed for owing him a very small amount? This is how I feel. Jesus forgave me ALL my sins I have ever or will ever commit, once for all time. How can I not forgive a person ONE sin against me? When I see the great and terrible multitude and severity of my sins, and know I am forgiven, saved to the uttermost, I simply have to forgive others, I would feel like a heel if I didn't.

[joeboonda]

Originally Posted by Darkness

How exactly have you sinned against God Katzpur?

The Bible says we ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory--the holiness of God. That there is none righteous, no not one.

[lilithu]

Namaste Katz.

Funny that you should post this so close to (the day after) Yom Kippur, the Jewish Day of Atonement. Every year on the Sunday closest to Yom Kippur our associate minister preaches about Atonement/Forgiveness, as she did today.

In Judaism, Yom Kippur is the most holy of days. It's the day (or the culmination of ten days) on which make things right between you and those with whom you've run afoul during the past year. This means asking forgiveness of those you have wronged and forgiving those who have wronged you, whether they ask for it or not. The point is to not start the new year with past grievances.

I do not know any secrets to making it easier, but I can pass on what my minister said today. She said, imagine seeing yourself through God's eyes. Not only do you have to be in right relationship with others and yourself; you also have to be in right relationship with God. If God can see every little grievance that you harbor, is that what you want God to see?

When put that way, it's not just a matter earning forgiveness for my own sins; I would be embarrassed for God to see my grievances. They automatically seemed petty and unimportant and therefore easy to let go.

Of course I am referring to small things, like someone saying an unkind word or being inconsiderate. Obviously, if someone is beating you or emotionally abusing you, then you cannot stay in relationship with them, regardless of forgiveness.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Matthew 6:14-15 states, "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

I am really struggling with this commandment, and would seriously appreciate input from Christians of all denominations. How do you go about forgiving someone who has wronged you when he or she is completely unrepentant? I'm pretty good at forgiving people who admit they've wrong me, apologize and sincerely try to improve in the future, but Jesus didn't teach that we should only forgive those who meet those qualifications. What do you all think about this commandment? Are you able to forgive people who continually hurt you?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

I fully understand if this is breaking the rules and my post needs to be deleted.

Well, technically, it is breaking the rules. However, I forgive you!

I think this passage if read literally, clearly shows at least 1 instance when it is okay (at least for God) not to forgive: when a person does not forgive others.

I see this as God saying that He will not forgive us if we don't forgive others. I don't believe the same permission to harbor a grudge is extended to us.

This I believe is crucial since it indicates that their are in fact criteria in which it is okay not to forgive people but that we do not have the authority to make such judgements since they are to be left to God alone. Non-forgiveness is therefore left to God whilst we do not have the right to decide whether a person is deserving of forgiveness.

Yup, that's how I see it too. In fact, LDS doctrine actually teaches, "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." (D&C 64:9–10) We don't believe that we have the option to forgive only those who are also forgiving of others, but that we are obligated to forgive everyone.

Depending on your view of heaven and hell, how forgiving you see God will vary but my understanding of LDS theology is that God is viewed as very, if not universally, forgiving which is a view that I share.

That is correct. We believe there is only one sin that cannot and will not be forgiven, and that is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, a concept probably too involved to explore in this discussion.

Another thing I do to try and overcome my inability to forgive is to put myself in the shoes of the person who has done wrong. I don't believe that humans are inherently evil, however, and so whilst I might not find a person's actions justifiable or even understandable, I can always point to a cause other than an evil nature and this goes some way to helping me to forgive them.

As difficult as it may be, I believe that's worth a try.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Darkness

How exactly have you s