How I Changed my Mind About Mary (Jesus Christ, rejecting, gospel)

[Victor]

By: Mark Shea

It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that. People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.

However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.

This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).
Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.

So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."
There. That didn't hurt a bit. In fact, I think I heard St. Luke pray it too!

[MysticSang'ha]

Since I was raised Catholic, Victor, I think your post hit the nail on the head as to why I hold a certain respect for the Church for it's praises of Mary as the Mother of God.




My mother told me of how she often would be visited by her at night when her family was going through hard times around WWII. She's told me that she is more beautiful and loving than she could ever imagine. I've always loved her stories of when Mary would visit her.



When I saw The Passion of the Christ at the theatre, it was Mary who grabbed my attention nearly as much as Jesus did. Talk about strength, dignity, and seeing her as "the mother of us all!"




Oh, and reciting the Hail Mary prayer takes me back to all those times I'd be kneeling in the pews after confession with my rosary.






Peace,
Mystic

[Scott1]

Great thread Victor! Gotta love Mark Shea....

Keep up the good work with this forum... it was nice to see that, as always, the Roman Catholic Forum is the most active of all the Individual Religions sub-Forums.

Good Bless,
Scott

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by MysticSang'ha

When I saw The Passion of the Christ at the theatre, it was Mary who grabbed my attention nearly as much as Jesus did. Talk about strength, dignity, and seeing her as "the mother of us all!"

I'd forgotten, but now that you mention it, that was my impression, too. I really did love how Mary was always there for her son. The way she was depicted in the movie was just a powerful reminder of how great a woman she was.

[joeboonda]

I understand reverence for Mary, she was obedient to God and bore His Son, then in LUke 2:21-24, she offered her sin offering of two turtledoves to the temple as all good mothers did (Jewish). But the Bible says all have sinned, that there is none righeous, (this would include Mary as it says only Jesus never sinned). It was only Jesuswho never sinned, that is why Jesus could pay for our sins, not Mary. So, when people bow down and pray to statues of her, instead of worshipping and praying to Jesus, that does cause me some concern. Mary was the chosen vessel to bring Christ into the world, but Christ created the world, He is divine, Mary only human. She is referred to as a mediatrix, but again, my Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ, in 1 Tim. 2:5, so there are not two mediators, just one, and that is Jesus through whom we pray and the one who we go to as a mediator for our sins. So, if Jesus intercedes for us and not Mary, if Jesus answers our prayers, and not Mary, if Jesus paid for our sins, and not Mary, if she is presented some other way than only the Bible presents her, I have to wonder. I have my own ideas, which I will keep to myself. I just think we need to point people to Jesus, so they can be saved, more than raising up Mary, we should raise up Christ.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

I understand reverence for Mary, she was obedient to God and bore His Son, then in LUke 2:21-24, she offered her sin offering of two turtledoves to the temple as all good mothers did (Jewish). But the Bible says all have sinned, that there is none righeous, (this would include Mary as it says only Jesus never sinned). It was only Jesuswho never sinned, that is why Jesus could pay for our sins, not Mary.

Then it is obvious to me that you do not take that verse hyper-literally. If you did, you would have to include Jesus himself.

Originally Posted by joeboonda

So, when people bow down and pray to statues of her, instead of worshipping and praying to Jesus, that does cause me some concern.

It would me too if they were indeed "worshipping" Mary. In fact, I'm sure Mary herself wouldn't like it. Is this really what you think Catholics teach?

Originally Posted by joeboonda

Mary was the chosen vessel to bring Christ into the world, but Christ created the world, He is divine, Mary only human. She is referred to as a mediatrix, but again, my Bible says that there is only one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ, in 1 Tim. 2:5, so there are not two mediators, just one, and that is Jesus through whom we pray and the one who we go to as a mediator for our sins.

Jesus alone effectively interposes between God the Father and the entire human race. It is crucial to note that this intercession/mediation is regarding our redemption.

But there is a secondary meaning to the word "mediator".

CATHOLIC ANSWERS
There is, however, a less strict sense in which Christians from the earliest times have understood the idea of mediation. This is the idea of a subordinate mediation by which we participate in the mediation of Jesus Christ. It is a mediation that is effective through, with, and in Christ. The subordinate mediator never stands alone, but is always dependent on Jesus. Let’s examine the biblical foundation for this understanding, with a special reference to 1 Timothy 2:5.

<snip>

In attempting to interpret a particular Bible passage correctly, it is imperative to begin by considering the passage in its context. Paul’s first letter to Timothy 2:5 shows how these principles apply. If we consider this verse—"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"—apart from its context, it is easy to misinterpret. Doesn’t "one mediator" mean just that—one, no exception? If this is so, asking for the intercession of saints seems anti-biblical.

However, this interpretation is inaccurate. The passage is not isolated. It is a verse in a larger book called an epistle. What, then, is the correct meaning of Paul’s teaching? How does this passage fit in with the whole picture presented in the Bible?

Let’s consider these questions by first examining the immediate context of 1 Timothy 2:5. Is Paul rejecting the idea of mediators subordinate to Jesus? Actually, the opposite is true. Chapter two of 1 Timothy opens with the following exhortation: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way" (1 Tim. 2:1–2).

Supplications, prayers, and intercessions are acts of mediation. Paul is instructing Timothy that Christians are to assume the role of a subordinate mediator between God and those listed (namely, "all men, for kings and all who are in high positions"). The theological principle that Paul uses to buttress his command is the passage already quoted in verse five—the one, primary mediation of Jesus.

Continued------->http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0005fea1.asp

Hope that helps...

[Arrow]

? What makes Mary so great? I do not mean any disrespect, but the only thing that made her significant was that she was from the line of David. However, God could have used any female from the line of David and still fulfill prophecy and covenant. Mary was blessed because she was the one lucky enough to give birth to Jesus. She was blessed in that she was the first human to know Jesus. I see no reason why she should be put in a higher place than any of the apostles or fellow Christians. After all, she was human like the rest of us. If this could be cleared up that would be great.

[Arrow]

I just realized i kind of seemed harsh and i apologize.

[Happier]

Originally Posted by Arrow

I just realized i kind of seemed harsh and i apologize.

Actually Arrow you just said what a lot of us were thinking.

Victor, what do you think of the petition signed by so many RC's (including Mother Teresa) to name Mary co-Redemptrix? I think it is heresy.

Do you not think the Marian assumption would be hard to swallow - if not downright offensive - for most Protestants based on our core beliefs - scripture alone, faith alone, grace alone, and Christ alone?

The belief that Mary was sinless from birth - where does that come from? Or that she herself was the result of a virgin birth? What is the source of these claims, and why should they be believed?

My parents were both Godly believers, now saints in heaven. Would it be appropriate for me to pray for their intercession? I'm honestly not trying to be facetious here, but digging for that kernel of truth.

If Christ indeed is our only bridge from humanity to God, our only source of salvation, I wish Catholics would just say so. Otherwise salvation becomes very nebulous and confusing.

Because if not - why the agony of the crucifixion? What was the point? IOW, if we could just be baptized, go to confession, go to Mass, partake of the sacraments, try our best to be good Catholics, and do penance, then why would a just God demand the death of His Son?