Buddhist philosophers are useless.

[Ozzie]

I think the only coherent account of Buddhist experience is countenanced in procedural language. Any other account is useless.

Hence Koans etc are useless.

thoughts?

[Engyo]

Buddhism is practice. Anything beyond that (and much of practice) is upaya, expedient means.

If it aids *you*, then it's not useless, *to you*. The same thing may be supremely useless to me.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Ozzie

I think the only coherent account of Buddhist experience is countenanced in procedural language. Any other account is useless.

Hence Koans etc are useless.

thoughts?

I agree to a point. In reality, all words are futile if application of the procedure is not followed. Koans are an oddball form of thought that are designed to stimulate the individual to go beyond thought into deeper areas of the psyche to distill the answer. In this respect, koans can be quite cathartic. If there are looked at as simple riddles, with predefined answers that one can learn in advance, their impact is surely minimized. So, I would say, learning the answers to koans is useless without understanding precisely why the answers are valid.

Then again, what would I know? I'm not a Buddhist or Taoist, etc...

[Ozzie]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

I agree to a point. In reality, all words are futile if application of the procedure is not followed. Koans are an oddball form of thought that are designed to stimulate the individual to go beyond thought into deeper areas of the psyche to distill the answer. In this respect, koans can be quite cathartic. If there are looked at as simple riddles, with predefined answers that one can learn in advance, their impact is surely minimized. So, I would say, learning the answers to koans is useless without understanding precisely why the answers are valid.

Then again, what would I know? I'm not a Buddhist or Taoist, etc...

Lets just say that I doubt koans have utility that is transferable. As a route of learning under a master they might have appeal if not regarded as puzzles/poetry inviting interpretation. It is true that they invite realisation.

[lilithu]

So what we've established is that koans are not useful for Ozzie.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Ozzie

Lets just say that I doubt koans have utility that is transferable. As a route of learning under a master they might have appeal if not regarded as puzzles/poetry inviting interpretation. It is true that they invite realisation.

Perhaps realisation is the utility that is transferable.

[MysticSang'ha]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Perhaps realisation is the utility that is transferable.

Jeez, Patty....you rock my world.

Excellent!

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by Ozzie

I think the only coherent account of Buddhist experience is countenanced in procedural language. Any other account is useless.

Hence Koans etc are useless.

thoughts?

What? I love Koans. I find them to be very thought provoking.

Zen Koans - AshidaKim.com

[zenzero]

Friend Ozzie,

Buddhist philosophers are useless.
I think the only coherent account of Buddhist experience is countenanced in procedural language. Any other account is useless.
Hence Koans etc are useless.
thoughts?

Responding to your post must be said that *Not only Buddhist but all Philoshopers are useless because philosophers only carry bookish knowledge by reading and have no Real experiences of samadhi / nirvana / no-mind /etc.
----------------------- hence koans are useless.
Should be Hence the mind that * I * have is useless as it fails to understand the koan?
Anyway friend YmirGF has responded to that part like myself is neither a Buddhist / Taoist etc.
Love & rgds