Enlightenment, is a Catalyst needed? (mystic, evolve, experience, Zen)

[Random]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

The number of techniques to shock the system into enlightenment or a mystical consciousness is endless. Drugs, physical or sensory deprivation, meditation, chants, devotion, pain, starvation, &al. All cultures acknowledging some degree of mystical possibility have their methods. Then there are those highly-evolved or unstable individuals that become unhinged spontaneously for no apparent reason.

What he said.

[koan]

How does one expand consciousness? Consciousness is Consciousness. However, one may alter the way one percieves things through Awareness and mindfullness.This is paramount in Buddhism.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by koan

How does one expand consciousness? Consciousness is Consciousness.

Well, your name is Koan, hehe. Perhaps you can riddle it out.

First off, I use the terms consciousness and awareness synonomously. Consciousness IS awareness, imho. Secondly, I do not use the term "mindfulness" myself and prefer the much simpler term "will". As long as you are not especially attached to the results of your efforts, things should proceed smoothly.

How you ask? What is not mentioned very much, that I have seen, is that when one moves beyond the thought process, one is still left with what can be termed "emotions" and one still can "feel". I don't know about anyone else off hand, but I simply close my eyes and through the sheer force of my will, extend my awareness in an ever-increasing radius around me... like a bubble of energy. The trick is to be aware of how your energy spirals outwards from within you into physical reality. It is difficult to describe, but one can certainly feel the changes that take place. It does take considerable focus, certainly at first, I will say that. Also, the reason I say expansion is because there really is no other way to describe the sensation that I can think of at least. If others were to do this, they would quickly see what I am meaning.

Originally Posted by koan

However, one may alter the way one percieves things through Awareness and mindfullness.This is paramount in Buddhism.

I respect what you are saying Koan however, one alters the way one perceives reality continually --even in "ordinary" consciousness. The fun begins when one can shift though states of consciousness seemlessly and with little effort. Depending on the state of consciousness utilized, one percieves reality in a different light, similar to how different filters placed on a camera's lens will alter the colour and texture of a picture.

Personally, I would like to hear you flesh out the Buddhist position on this. Although many years ago, I was profoundly influenced by Tibetan Buddhism, I soon moved passed it into what I now call "frameworks".

[Ozzie]

Originally Posted by koan

What is needed to become enlightened? Is it many years of study? Is it just having an open mind? Or does there need to be some type of catalyst?
I personally prescribe to the view that to become enlightened, a catalyst is needed. In the zen school that I am from, we believe one needs to engage a "Great Doubt". What is a great doubt? It is the doubt that arises when so called logical thinking does not give one the answers to the questions on life and happiness, they are seeking. Mental trauma is certainly a way of obtaining a great doubt. What other factors, may induce this great doubt? The Buddha spent six years doing ascetic training (which almost killed him), before he came to the conclusion, that that particular way of thinking(and practicing), was wrong. This became his great doubt. He then used this to find the real answer he was seeking.
The Buddha said "All sentient beings have the Buddha nature". What he means is, we all have the potential to be enlightened. So how do we realise our Buddha nature?
What will cause one to have the desire to realise this enlightenment?

I don't think a catalyst is necessary. We each get to pull our own trigger.

[Ozzie]

[quote]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

Secondly, I do not use the term "mindfulness" myself and prefer the much simpler term "will".As long as you are not especially attached to the results of your efforts, things should proceed smoothly.

Frubals for that comment on the "mindfulness" trap.

[MysticSang'ha]

Originally Posted by koan

What is needed to become enlightened? Is it many years of study? Is it just having an open mind? Or does there need to be some type of catalyst?
I personally prescribe to the view that to become enlightened, a catalyst is needed. In the zen school that I am from, we believe one needs to engage a "Great Doubt". What is a great doubt? It is the doubt that arises when so called logical thinking does not give one the answers to the questions on life and happiness, they are seeking. Mental trauma is certainly a way of obtaining a great doubt. What other factors, may induce this great doubt? The Buddha spent six years doing ascetic training (which almost killed him), before he came to the conclusion, that that particular way of thinking(and practicing), was wrong. This became his great doubt. He then used this to find the real answer he was seeking.
The Buddha said "All sentient beings have the Buddha nature". What he means is, we all have the potential to be enlightened. So how do we realise our Buddha nature?
What will cause one to have the desire to realise this enlightenment?

Are you asking two seperate questions, koan?

I defer to the simplistic answer........the Noble Eightfold Path. In our school, we practice and study the Lam Rim in order to realize our Buddha nature.

Having the desire to be enlightened is something I think is inherent in us all because of our existence in samsara. If "enlightenment" is not the word, it might be more appropriate to say that all of us want to be happy and to be free from delusions and suffering.




Peace,
Mystic

[vandervalley]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

I agree they're not necessary -- the physiology of enlightenment has not been extensively studied. But such modalities are very common, and should not be dismissed out-of-hand.

Native Americans in my neighborhood use peyote as a sacrament. In South America they have a much more extensive pharmacopeia.

Buddha himself opted for the deprivation/starvation modality. At one point he was so emaciated the mark of his bum in the sand was said to resemble a camel's footprint.
Many Native Americans opt for a variation of this in their spirit quests.

And we're all aware of the sensory deprivation/meditation techniques of Himalayan Lamas or Indian Sadhus.

Buddha tried starvation technique before his Enlightenent but later he decided that it's too extreme and unnecessary for Enlightement for normal people like us.

Buddhism avoids extremes of starvation as well as over eating in everyday practices.

Native Americans in my neighborhood use peyote as a sacrament. In South America they have a much more extensive pharmacopeia.

I am not aware of any Buddhist practice that uses drugs or other intoxicants. Maybe you can enlighten me on this one

Using drugs or other intoxicants to mess up with the mind is not the same as Enlightenment in the Buddhist sense.

[Seyorni]

I wasn't talking about Buddhists. I was talking about Native Americans. I've never met a Native American Buddhist, but I assume those that exist eschew intoxicants.

I'm not sure "mess up with the mind" is an accurate description of the serious quest for insight many users of hallucinogens are engaged in.
There was a great deal of research done on this back in the '70s. The insights and descriptions of reality realized by serious users of psychotropics was indistinguishable from those of mystics and sages throughout history. Mystic reality is mystic reality -- identical pan culturally, pan modality, pan temporally.

[vandervalley]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

I wasn't talking about Buddhists. I was talking about Native Americans. I've never met a Native American Buddhist, but I assume those that exist eschew intoxicants.

I'm not sure "mess up with the mind" is an accurate description of the serious quest for insight many users of hallucinogens are engaged in.
There was a great deal of research done on this back in the '70s. The insights and descriptions of reality realized by serious users of psychotropics was indistinguishable from those of mystics and sages throughout history. Mystic reality is mystic reality -- identical pan culturally, pan modality, pan temporally.

So are you saying that some drunkards and those who are on pills are indistinquishable with those doing meditaion?

here is the definition of "psychotropics" I used to interprete your post


1.affecting mental activity, behavior, or perception, as a mood-altering drug. –noun 2.a psychotropic drug, as a tranquilizer, sedative, or antidepressant.
psychotropic - Definitions from Dictionary.com.

Maybe I should see an alcoholic and learn meditation from him/her.