can someone help me with this? (contradiction, Buddhism, beliefs, translation)

[Mike182]

im not intending any offense by this, but is buddhism a contradiction?

to want is to suffer, yes? but buddhists want to achieve enlightenment - surely this would mean you will not reach enlightenment because you are suffering, because you want to reach it........ is this a contradiction?

[PureX]

Do Buddhists want to suffer? I've never heard of that.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/buddhism1.htm

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Mike182

im not intending any offense by this, but is buddhism a contradiction?

to want is to suffer, yes? but buddhists want to achieve enlightenment - surely this would mean you will not reach enlightenment because you are suffering, because you want to reach it........ is this a contradiction?

Hey Mike! It isn't just the wanting that causes suffering. It's that we want and inevitably we will not have what we want. Even if we get it temporarily, sooner or later we will lose it. Inevitably, the cycle of desire/attachment causes suffering.

If the solution were simply to want enlightenment, then you would be right; that's a contradiction. Also, if it were necessary to destroy all desire within you at once, again enlightenment would be impossible.

But the Buddha prescribed a method by which to end desire/attachment - the eight-fold path. And if you start practicing the eight-fold path, you may be starting with the initial desire to end suffering, but the practice itself will cause you to understand the nature of desire, and as you understand it, what causes it, what results from it, such desires will begin to drop. Typically (tho not always) the desire for material things is the first to go. People can usually easily see, given some reflection, how that desire for that big-screen plasma tv or that fancy gourmet coffee will not lead to contentment. It is harder to let go of our attachment to people and to ideas. But with further practice of the eight-fold path, guided by the Buddha's teachings, one starts to see the nature of these desires as well. Finally, one will come to the desire for nibbana itself. By then, having understood and released these other desires, it will be possible to see the nature of this one as well.

I've oversimplified for the sake of clarity (whether I achieved clarity or not is another matter). It doesn't necessarily happen in nice discrete steps, like a twelve step program. There are numerous stories of people instantaneously achieving enlightenment when the conditions are right. But my point is that it doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. The practice of Buddhism will take care of the apparent contradiction. Hope this helps.

[Mike182]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Hey Mike! It isn't just the wanting that causes suffering. It's that we want and inevitably we will not have what we want. Even if we get it temporarily, sooner or later we will lose it. Inevitably, the cycle of desire/attachment causes suffering.

If the solution were simply to want enlightenment, then you would be right; that's a contradiction. Also, if it were necessary to destroy all desire within you at once, again enlightenment would be impossible.

But the Buddha prescribed a method by which to end desire/attachment - the eight-fold path. And if you start practicing the eight-fold path, you may be starting with the initial desire to end suffering, but the practice itself will cause you to understand the nature of desire, and as you understand it, what causes it, what results from it, such desires will begin to drop. Typically (tho not always) the desire for material things is the first to go. People can usually easily see, given some reflection, how that desire for that big-screen plasma tv or that fancy gourmet coffee will not lead to contentment. It is harder to let go of our attachment to people and to ideas. But with further practice of the eight-fold path, guided by the Buddha's teachings, one starts to see the nature of these desires as well. Finally, one will come to the desire for nibbana itself. By then, having understood and released these other desires, it will be possible to see the nature of this one as well.

I've oversimplified for the sake of clarity (whether I achieved clarity or not is another matter). It doesn't necessarily happen in nice discreet steps, like a twelve step program. There are numerous stories of people instantaneously achieving enlightenment when the conditions are right. But my point is that it doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. The practice of Buddhism will take care of the apparent contradiction. Hope this helps.

thanks lilithu, nice to hear from you!

that clarified things, thanks!

[michel]

Damn; got beaten to it by the expert!

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by michel

Damn; got beaten to it by the expert!

Hey Michel, have you been studying Buddhism too?

[Karl R]

Originally Posted by Mike182

to want is to suffer, yes?

Originally Posted by PureX

Do Buddhists want to suffer? I've never heard of that.

He said that wanting leads to suffering (according to Buddhist beliefs).

It's a bit of a mistranslation. The confusion revolves around the meaning of dukkha, which can be translated a number of ways:

Wanting leads to suffering.
Wanting leads to difficulty.
Wanting leads to dissatifaction.
Wanting leads to frustration.
And a couple others that translate roughly into "hollowness" and "missing the mark".

If you say that unfulfillable desires lead to difficulty, dissatisfaction, and frustration ... then many people would simply say that you have a good grasp on reality.

[Engyo]

Another point to ponder is that it is not the desire itself which leads to dukkha, but the attachment to the outcome of that desire. I can desire enlightenment, without becoming attached to achieving that desire this afternoon. My lack of success in achieving enlightenment this afternoon will cause dukkha because of the attachment, not the desire for enlightenment itself.

I can enjoy that fancy gourmet coffee, and even desire it, as long as I do not become attached to (or can release the attachment to) having it. If it is unavailable then I can be content with what I do have. Thus is dukkha overcome or circumvented.

As Lilithu said, the contradiction vanishes as one begins to practice and study Buddhism.