Reincarnation (ritual, Earth, tradition, Buddhism, experience)

[anders]

One thing has been puzzling me for years.

There is no such thing as an "I" or "self"; yet this non-existent "I" should try to get away from the eternal cycle of new births. Why?

The only reason I can imagine is that I should care so much for future beings, that I should avoid creating fruits of dhamma which in turn would give rise to a new being.

Are there better explanations?

Anders

[Engyo]

Anders -

I am probably not the best Buddhist to deal with your question. The tradition/school I practice doesn't view "nirvana" or stepping off the wheel of rebirth as a goal. Attainment of nirvana was thought to equate to the end of suffering, as well as enlightenment.

My tradition, Nichiren Buddhism, believes that perfect enlightenment has always been the goal. In the Lotus Sutra the Buddha states that he taught many different paths to appeal to many different kinds of people, but that ultimately they all become the same path towards enlightenment. Practicing this path, also known as the One Vehicle, individuals are concerned not only with their own progress on the path but that of others as well. Rebirth, under this view, is another chance to continue assisting others on their paths as well as making more progress on our own path. Thus rebirth is not something to avoid or escape.

Rebirth is also distinct from reincarnation; the two terms are not interchangeable. Reincarnation signifies the return of an individual; rebirth does not. Rebirth signifies a new being; there is a certain continuity from the previous, in the form of karma, but they are not two instances of the same individual.

Emptiness, or the lack of a "self" is exactly the concept here. Basically it means that there is nothing that is absolute/eternal/unchanging. Because this is so, there is no "self" which continues from life to life. However, karma is passed along, so it behooves us to create the best possible karma we can to pass on to the next individual "we" become, whether that involves attaining nirvana or enlightenment.

[Runt]

Hmm... Engyo, I think I MAY agree with you. I have some thoughts on rebirth, but I'm not sure they are the same as yours.

Here is what I believe:

We humans are ultimately spiritual creatures temporarily "visiting" the physical plane. Our "natural" state is to be a part of the vast Consciousness that is God. We were there before we were born, and we will return when we die. That which some call "Heaven" is simply the totality of all Consciousness. When you “go to Heaven” you join that Consciousnes that is God and become one with It. You leave behind your human body, your human personality, and your limited understanding of the world and literally become God. You are above the need for things like pleasure and happiness.

Yet at the same time, we are part of this Consciousness even as we visit the physical plane; but we do not have full understanding while on the physical plane of the spiritual reality; when we die, or when we attain enlightenment, we will come to that understanding.

Therefore, our "self" is an entity that consists of three distinct parts:

1. Consciousness which is not unique and is absorbed back into the vast pool of Consciousness (God) upon your death
2. Body which decays and goes back to the earth upon death
3. Personality/Mind which is a one-of-a-kind combination of genes, environmental influences, and life experiences which is lost forever upon death.

The Consciousness is the only transcendent part of our total "self". The Body and Personality/Mind exist on the physical plane alone, and are shed when we die or are acknowledged as seperate and inconsequential when we attain enlightment.

Therefore, part of the Consciousness that inhabited a body for a while can potentially find itself in a body again. Just like water evaporates from a pool and then rains down again, with some of it ending up together in another pool. But as far as an individual human's Personality/Mind returning to live another life in another body… no.

[Engyo]

Buddhism posits 8 or 9 conciousnesses. The first 5 are connected to the 5 senses; sight , hearing, taste, touch, and smell. The 6th is the awareness of these first 5. All animals (insects birds fish mammals) have this to a greater or lesser degree. The 7th is the rational cognitive mind (what we are using to communicate with right now). This reflects the "personality/mind" you mention above. The 8th is the alaya conciousness or karmic storehouse. This has no real analog in your scenario. The 9th is the seed of enlightenment which all life contains, and which may somewhat correspond to overall conciousness you mention. However, this is not a universal pool out of which we each get a small amount; rather it is something which occurs as an integral part of the formation of an individual life out of the 5 aggregates.

My understanding of this whole piece of things is still developing; I apologize if I haven't been able to convey it very clearly.

[Runt]

It is a little confusing, but I think it helps.

For me, the first 5 levels of consciousness you listed would be part of the physical Body. The 6th and 7th would be the Personality/Mind. The 8th level, which you defined as "the alaya conciousness or karmic storehouse" is, for me, seperate from the Self: it exists on the spiritual plane but affects us in the spiritual plane; is is basically the direct consequence of our actions (but more than mere scientific "cause and effect") rather than a buildup of karma that is part of the Self. The 9th is, as far as I can tell, similar to my notion of a vast Consciousness of which we can comprehend a small part while limited by the five senses and the 6th and 7th levels, but different. You seem to be saying that it is a POTENTIAL to comprehend this Consciousness, rather than an actual part of us? Or am I misinterpreting you?

[Engyo]

Runt -

I don't think that Buddhahood exists independently of the living beings who all exhibit it's potential - I don't envision a vast pool of Buddhahood just sort of floating somewhere, with bits zooming off to become parts of individuals as they come into existence.

A friend likens the potential for enlightenment in each of us to sports or music in this way. Everyone has the potential to become a musician. Some people never do anything with this potential. Many people learn a bit of musical theory, sing a few songs along with the radio, and so on. Some people make music the focus of their lives, and some few become the incredibly inspiring talents that leave all of the rest of us in awe of their accomplishments.

Sports are the same. Millions of people play basketball. Thousands play at the collegiate/semi-pro/Olympic level. Hundreds play professional basketball, but there are only a very few whose names are known worldwide.

That said, I don't think there is a vast pool of musicianship or sports talent floating around waiting to manifest; I think it's more part ad parcel of life itself. Please understand though, that we have strayed into the realm of my own opinions, rather than actual Buddhism. I will need to do some more studying before I can speak to this from the standpoint of Buddhism rather than my opinions.

[Runt]

Originally Posted by Engyo

Please understand though, that we have strayed into the realm of my own opinions, rather than actual Buddhism. I will need to do some more studying before I can speak to this from the standpoint of Buddhism rather than my opinions.

Heh. Sometimes I really wonder what religion my opinions correspond to. Definitely a mixture... but still...

Originally Posted by Engyo

I don't think that Buddhahood exists independently of the living beings who all exhibit it's potential - I don't envision a vast pool of Buddhahood just sort of floating somewhere, with bits zooming off to become parts of individuals as they come into existence.

LMAO. I think that this Buddhahood and the Consciousness I speak of are two seperate things. This Consciousness is a part of us all... consider it like this... we are all part of humanity, but no one human IS humanity in and of itself. We are all part of this Consciousness, but the Consciousness itself (God) is more than any one individual. For me, Buddhahood would be something subtally different... the ability to recognize that you are part of this Consciousness, the ability to sense it, the ability to become content with your place within it and help others do so as well. Like you say, this would be more of a potential all of us have but only some develop.

[David Morley]

The ancient 'Bon' philosophy says that there is a fundamental 'you', which is reborn, and in each incarnation a new soul ('I') must be built around it. I think that most Buddhist traditions would agree on something like this. Therefore the 'I' self is transient and belongs only to this incarnation. This 'I' colours the fundamental 'you' and therefore has an affect on the new incarnation.

Hopefully enlightenment will join all (everything) together and there will be awareness of all, past and present.

Look up 'anatta':

Anatta
A doctrine in Theravada Buddhism. There is reincarnation, but not of the self. Only 'psychic patterns' are imprinted on a new person. Identity of being does not have to co-exist with the identity of awareness. A person's present sense of self is not at all identical with the reincarnating soul. Historically, the idea is a reaction to the earlier unsophistcated ideas about the reincarnating self. Exploring Reincarnation - Hans TenDam

[Engyo]

David -

Thanks for finding a very clear explanation of what I so fumblingly tried to describe!

[inca]

En Gyo you sign your name (or nickname) with those ideograms. Are those Japanese or Chinese? Do you know how can I write the sound J-VEH (without the sound of an H)? Sorry to interrupt your chat, but I won't discuss more about it after this message.
Thanks in case you can help me with this or have the intention to help me!