(Baptism) What it is and what it does. (Jesus Christ, gospel)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by blueman

Your making an assumption that paradise and heaven are not the same thing. It almost like you have proof to validate your position. Your comments regarding the thief are assuming that he may have been baptized, right? Paul stated in scripture that to be "Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The thief gained access to heaven through His faith in Christ and being baptized in the spirit. I'm okay with assuming the unlikelihood of this individual being baptized in water prior to coming to Christ. If Jesus was God in the flesh and God is omnipresent, why could'nt Jesus be in more than one place at the same time? The thief was with God in Heaven after he died. I'm also okay with us not agreeing on this position. I respect your opinion.

Blueman,

It's not my intention to drive this matter into the ground, and I'm going to let most of what you said ride. You're right, we're probably not going to come to an agreement on this issue, and I respect your opinion, too.

I'm going to comment on only one point you made, that being, "Why couldn't Jesus be in more than one place at the same time?" Jesus specifically said He hadn't been to Heaven as of Easter morning. Therefore, whether He could have been in two places at once is beside the point. He hadn't been to Heaven at that time and was clear in saying so.

Kathryn

[Pilgrim of this Reality]

Baptism does not cleanse us of any sin, nor is it a requirement of salvation. In 1 Conrithians, 1:17, Paul stressed I am not hear to baptize, but to spread the gospel. In addition, if baptism was a requirement for salvation or redeemed us of our sine, why would this not apply to the thief/murderer who was on the cross beside Jesus and asked the Him (because he believed through faith that Jesus was the Son of God) to remember him when He gets to heaven. Jesus said from this day forward you will be with me in paradise, absent from being immersed in any water. We as believers are baptized because we are being obedient to God's commandment and it is an outward reflection of our unity and new relationship with Jesus Christ. It is not a requirement for salvation.

Blueman, the thief on the cross was a different matter. They were still under the Judaic Law and therefore the principle cannot be applied. Christianity didnt come into play until Acts 2 on the day of Pentacost. It was then that the requirments of baptism came into play as others have already stated.


"8Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:18-20

Faith only doesnt hold water according to the verses above. Devils believe yet are they saved? God wants us to act to work toward the goal. He tells us certain things that must be done like love Him and our neighbors. Baptism is also a work because He commands it. When looking at NT teachings all of the writings must be considered. Picking and choosing a verse here and there leads to confusing and can easily loose context. Satan used such a ploy to tempt Jesus.( Matthew 4:1-17)

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim of this Reality

Blueman, the thief on the cross was a different matter. They were still under the Judaic Law and therefore the principle cannot be applied. Christianity didnt come into play until Acts 2 on the day of Pentacost. It was then that the requirments of baptism came into play as others have already stated.


"8Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:18-20

Faith only doesnt hold water according to the verses above. Devils believe yet are they saved? God wants us to act to work toward the goal. He tells us certain things that must be done like love Him and our neighbors. Baptism is also a work because He commands it. When looking at NT teachings all of the writings must be considered. Picking and choosing a verse here and there leads to confusing and can easily loose context. Satan used such a ploy to tempt Jesus.( Matthew 4:1-17)

I respect your opinion, but your works are not what saves you (Ephesians 2:8,9). If baptism was a requirement for salvation, it would be a form of legalism. Jesus fulfillment of righteousness broke the veil of the law and all of is customs/rituals. I agree with you regarding faith without works is dead as James so eloquently reflected in Scripture, but that is not applicable to salvation. It is applicable to your actions and behavior after you come to Christ to be obedient and follow God's will and believe and trust in Him completely without leaning to your own understanding (Proverbs 3:5). We are baptize because it is a form of symbolism to show the world that we have been transformed internally (through the Spirit). There are so many New testament scriptures (John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8, Romans 10:9,10) regarding salvation, but interestingly, none of them reinforce an immersion in water baptism as a requirement to be saved.

[Scuba Pete]

So Blueman...

What cleansed Naamun?

His disbelief or his works?

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Blueman,

It's not my intention to drive this matter into the ground, and I'm going to let most of what you said ride. You're right, we're probably not going to come to an agreement on this issue, and I respect your opinion, too.

I'm going to comment on only one point you made, that being, "Why couldn't Jesus be in more than one place at the same time?" Jesus specifically said He hadn't been to Heaven as of Easter morning. Therefore, whether He could have been in two places at once is beside the point. He hadn't been to Heaven at that time and was clear in saying so.

Kathryn

Fair enough Katzpur. Have a blessed week.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Linus

Not according to scripture, my friend.

Acts 2:38 - and Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

At the very least, you must admit that repentance and baptism go hand in hand. Each is invalid without the other. According to this passage, repentance and baptism are mentioned together as requirements for salvation.

Mark 16:16 echoes this fact -He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

You can't deny the fact that baptism saves. Peter said it on more than one occasion as I have shown, and Jesus Himself even states it. Like I said, at the VERY least, you have to admit that reentence and baptism must go together. Otherwise, you are denying what the scripure plainly states.

If baptism doesn't save you, then why does 1 Peter say that it does?

Linus, each scripture is referring to a spiritual baptism, not the symbolism of a water baptism that saves you. We should be baptized becuase we want to show people a symbol of the transformation that has taken place inwardly in uniting with Christ. Let me ask you a question. If someone has been witnessed to and they happen to be on their death bed (never been immersed in a water baptism), but received Christ through faith and was "baptized through the Spirit", that person would be condemned to hell? Please clarify.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

I wonder what Naamun would say to that Blueman? II Kings 5:1-14

You might want to look that OT story up!

Okay and Naamun obeyed (although with reluctance) Elisha instructions which were directed by God for a physical healing that came to pass. And your point is? This was a phsyical healing through God for Naamun. Aan immersion in water does not cleanse your Spirit man or your sins. What makes you righteous is your acceptance of Christ through faith and the spiritual baptism that takes place. God healed people physically in many ways throughout Scripture, so I am not sure what the signifigance of this passage has to do with the discussion in this thread.

[Scuba Pete]

Did the water cleanse Naamun?

I think not.

Read James for some more great insight on "Faith vs works".

As for "baptism" being a work... it is no more that than a decision is a "work". God is doing ALL of the work in Baptism not me. We would rather God set some sort of noble task for us to accomplish such as feed the poor or find a cure. Nope, there is NOTHING noble we can "do" to merit eternal life. But I do have to believe (another work) and respond (another work) in order to accomplish this.

I find the BIGGEST block to understanding baptism is mere pride. Just like Naamun, we feel that there are "cleaner rivers" in our own country. In our arrogance, we miss the point that sometimes we need to do that which we don't understand simply because God has asked us to. We don't have a "better plan". There are no "cleaner rivers".

Also, in our misplaced sense of importance, we want God to tell us in person before we decide to act. "What's with this God's servant thing? Why don't I rate?" It's not the messenger's fault, it is ours! Again, it is our sheer arrogance that stops us from listening to the truth, just because it IS the truth. After all, we need someone to blame now don't we?

When it comes to baptism, God chose what is foolish to confound the wise. God chose an act that could never be construed as a "work" to make us humble ourselves to obedience, even to die to our selves. That man would distort the simplicity and beauty of this does not surprise me. Arrogance and pride often do that.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Did the water cleanse Naamun?

I think not.

Read James for some more great insight on "Faith vs works".

As for "baptism" being a work... it is no more that than a decision is a "work". God is doing ALL of the work in Baptism not me. We would rather God set some sort of noble task for us to accomplish such as feed the poor or find a cure. Nope, there is NOTHING noble we can "do" to merit eternal life. But I do have to believe (another work) and respond (another work) in order to accomplish this.

I find the BIGGEST block to understanding baptism is mere pride. Just like Naamun, we feel that there are "cleaner rivers" in our own country. In our arrogance, we miss the point that sometimes we need to do that which we don't understand simply because God has asked us to. We don't have a "better plan". There are no "cleaner rivers".

Also, in our misplaced sense of importance, we want God to tell us in person before we decide to act. "What's with this God's servant thing? Why don't I rate?" It's not the messenger's fault, it is ours! Again, it is our sheer arrogance that stops us from listening to the truth, just because it IS the truth. After all, we need someone to blame now don't we?

When it comes to baptism, God chose what is foolish to confound the wise. God chose an act that could never be construed as a "work" to make us humble ourselves to obedience, even to die to our selves. That man would distort the simplicity and beauty of this does not surprise me. Arrogance and pride often do that.

I think you might have stretched this a little too far in your response. I am a proponent of baptism and the symbolism that it represents when one comes to Christ through salvation. I am just of the opinion that the physical act is not a requirement of salvation, but more importantly, your acceptance of Christ through faith and your baptism of the Spirit is what saves you by the grace of God. Analogous to the thief on the cross beside Jesus, what if you witnessed to someone on their death bed that never accepted Christ, nor had been "immersed in water" through baptism, but subsequently accepted Christ through faith after you or anyone had shared the Gospel with them. If they in turn passed away that same day or week, are they condemned to go to hell because they did not go through the symbolism of being physically dipped in water? Have their sins not been forgiven/cleansed even though they never partook in this outward representation of the change inwardly in their new relationship with Christ?