(Baptism) What it is and what it does. (Jesus Christ, gospel)

[blueman]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

The thief died before the beginning of the church. He was under the old Law.

Baptism goes against all logic. In doing so, it completely strips us of being able to rely on our own understanding. It's biggest requirement is that of humility: accepting God at his word and doing something that is simply crazy to any right thinking individual. Go figure!

That's got nothing to do with it. Baptism was a ritual in the Jewish culture, that also meant the washing of the hands before dining. I think that all Christians should be baptized, becuase God commanded it, but it is not a requirement of salvation.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

So you just choose to ignore the scriptures that say otherwise?

So what? Because Paul's calling was to spread the gospel and not to baptize, we're supposed to assume that baptism is really an unnecessary ordinance?

May I ask how you know that the thief had not been baptized? (I'm not saying he was; I'm just suggesting that you not make any assumptions when they can't be substantiated). I can assure you that there are many individuals in prisons around the world today who have been baptized. Being baptized and being a criminal are not mutually exclusive.

Finally, Paradise is not the same place as Heaven. Jesus told the thief He'd see him in Paradise on that very day. But as of Easter morning when Mary first saw Him in the Garden near the tomb, He told her He had not yet ascended to His Father in Heaven.

Whatever. We obviously aren't going to agree on this issue.

Kathryn

Your making an assumption that paradise and heaven are not the same thing. It almost like you have proof to validate your position. Your comments regarding the thief are assuming that he may have been baptized, right? Paul stated in scripture that to be "Absent from the body is to be present with the Lord". The thief gained access to heaven through His faith in Christ and being baptized in the spirit. I'm okay with assuming the unlikelihood of this individual being baptized in water prior to coming to Christ. If Jesus was God in the flesh and God is omnipresent, why could'nt Jesus be in more than one place at the same time? The thief was with God in Heaven after he died. I'm also okay with us not agreeing on this position. I respect your opinion.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by blueman

I think that all Christians should be baptized, becuase God commanded it, but it is not a requirement of salvation.

How is it not a requirement for salvation if God commanded it?

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Linus

1 Peter 3:21- Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Seems pretty clear to me that it is.

Linus, what you left out of this verse in 1 Peter, was that the author also that this water symbolizes "baptism" (the baptism through the Spirit when you accept Jesus Christ in your heart through faith) that now saves you (once again, referring to the baptism of the spirit), not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but a pledge of good conscience towards God. It saves you by the ressurection of Jesus Christ".

The fulfillment of righteousness was Christ's incarnation, death on the cross and resurrection that provides salvation through faith and the grace of God (Ephesians 2:8,9). Also reference Acts 10:47 when Peter spoke to the Gentiles and asked his Jewish associates "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

Keep in mind this was before any of the Gentiles were baptized. If you receive the Spirit subsequent to accepting Christ through salvation and as you claim, baptism is a requirement for salvation, how were the Gentiles filled with the Spirit prior to being baptized? In verse 48, Peter requested they be baptized in Jesus Christ and go through the outward reflection (immersion in water) to "symbolize" that they have unified with Christ. It is not a requirement for salvation. If so, with all of the numerous New Testament scripture that references salvation, don't you think baptism in water would be consistently reinforced as a requirement for salvation and entry into Heaven? And once again, what about the thief on the cross? He was saved because He was baptized in the Spirit when he accepted Christ as the Son of God through faith.

[michel]

I am very confused by the apparent controversy regarding baptism of infants. I always understood the baptism to be the cleasing of original sin, usually carried out on behalf of the child (he/she being too young to understand), at the same time as the choosing of God-Parents. The choice would then be left open to the child (when older) to decide whether to receive 1st Communion.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by blueman

Linus, what you left out of this verse in 1 Peter, was that the author also that this water symbolizes "baptism" (the baptism through the Spirit when you accept Jesus Christ in your heart through faith) that now saves you (once again, referring to the baptism of the spirit), not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but a pledge of good conscience towards God. It saves you by the ressurection of Jesus Christ".

Sorry, but the first peter passage is referring to water. In the previous verse he mentions Noah and His family and their salvation through water.

1 Peter 3: 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

He's saying that water baptism doesn't phisically cleanse you, rather is cleanses you spiritually.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Linus

How is it not a requirement for salvation if God commanded it?

Linus, God commands a number of things to be obedient to Him through His will, it does mean that it is a requirement of salvation. Just like Christians participate in communion, a command of Christ that we do this in rememberance of his death and resurrection, not all Christians participate in this process. It does not mean they are not going to Heaven if one has faithfully received Christ through salvation. There is always going to be issues that we have with consistently being obedient to Christ while we remain in these fleshly bodies and have a sinful (inner) nature. We will not be perfected until we enter into heaven and are made just like Christ. Baptism is an outward symbolism of what has been transformed inwardly (your spirit being baptized). Some prominent passages that many Christians use when witnessing to unbelievers is Romans 10:9,10 and John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8 as well as many others in the New Testament. I don't recall baptism in water being reinforced as a requirement for salvation in either of those passages.

[blueman]

Originally Posted by Linus

Sorry, but the first peter passage is referring to water. In the previous verse he mentions Noah and His family and their salvation through water.

1 Peter 3: 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

He's saying that water baptism doesn't phisically cleanse you, rather is cleanses you spiritually.

We will just disagree on this point. Immersion in water is a symbolism of that cleansing, it does not cleanse you sprititually, because you are already cleansed because you ask for forgiveness and repented when you accepted Christ. If being immersed in water cleanses you and your sin spiritually, why don't we immerse ourselves through the baptism ceremony daily, since you and I sin daily? We don't have to, because all God requires is that we repent and ask for forgivenss. It is your spirit that has been baptized and the immersion in water is a outward symbol of your unity with Christ, not a requirement for salvation. We do this out of honor to Christ and to show the world that we have been renewed. But we were saved when we accepted Christ through faith, not through faith and immersion in water.

[Scuba Pete]

I wonder what Naamun would say to that Blueman? II Kings 5:1-14

You might want to look that OT story up!