The real problem with an inerrant Bible (Jesus, ritual, virgin)

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

We are spending a great deal of time in discussing the harmony/disharmony of the death of Judas. And, to me, it seems wasted. I keep hoping for an answer from a Christian that the details really don't matter. The truth and lesson for Judas's death is that he died with guilt for betraying Jesus. When Christians focus on the details it detracts from the truth. Spong is right that the Christian messgae is lost when the bible is literally taken

[Scuba Pete]

You know Pah,

I have just recently come to the relization that the scriptures don't seem to claim infallibility. However, I have not had time to digest that info and integrate it into my core beliefs. Change is best when it's gradual and thought out over time.

However, most Biblical discrepency theorists are merely rock throwers. They twist and they pull and are obviously quite driven to prove the scriptures wrong at any cost. Sort of like the Swift Boat Veterans mentality but set against the scriptures. It's hard to take them seriously.

Too many people are trying to PROVE their point, rather than trying to FIND the point. I tend to avoid the "My God is bigger than your God", or the "My faith is more logical than your faith" discussions except in passing.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by pah

The truth and lesson for Judas's death is that he died with guilt for betraying Jesus.

And by virtue of what revelation do you come to know this as "truth" as opposed to, for example, embellishment or pious fraud? And once you acknowledge the possibility, if not the likelihood, of error, gloss, midrash, embellishment and pious fraud, how do you categorize the virgin birth, the killing of fig trees, miraculous fish picnics and more miraculous resurrections?

For the intellectually honest, the acknowledgement of errancy is the baptismal entry into the Church of the God-of-the-Gaps.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

And by virtue of what revelation do you come to know this as "truth" as opposed to, for example, embellishment or pious fraud? And once you acknowledge the possibility, if not the likelihood, of error, gloss, midrash, embellishment and pious fraud, how do you categorize the virgin birth, the killing of fig trees, miraculous fish picnics and more miraculous resurrections?

Well yeah. The "truth" of Judas's guilt would require an assumption of a lot of personal truths before that.

For the intellectually honest, the acknowledgement of errancy is the baptismal entry into the Church of the God-of-the-Gaps.

I would think it is the start of subjective truth for a formerly objective God.

[oracle]

Originally Posted by pah

Spong is right that the Christian messgae is lost when the bible is literally taken

I couldn't have said it any better.

If after Jesus death, if the prophets really rose from their grave it would have been a significant event and recorded as history. The thing you have to understand, is that certain events that did not happen but have a significant symbolical and spiritual meaning were written into the story. Origen states this. The people who take it as literal are the carnal minded unworthy of the deeper meaning. The authors used historical events so that their message would be significant and passed down from generation to generation. However, there are many events that could have happened, but simply never happened as the meaning is allegorical and not literal and written in the story as to add depth to their spiritual message.

Originally Posted by pah

The truth and lesson for Judas's death is that he died with guilt for betraying Jesus.

I think this statement is a bit oversimplified. The lesson behind Judas's death is not solely about his guilt for betraying Jesus. If you anyalze characters from the bible psychologically, I think you will see more depth. Judas's downfall was the cause of his own selfishness.

[michel]

(Ducks head to avoid missiles) I really don't want to upset anyone, and I have kept some of my Ideas to myself for that reason, but I see a reflection of my thoughts from others' comments.
(Deep breath) To me, the Bible is not a 'hard and fast accurate manual for spirituality, from which there must be no deviation'; it has always seemed to me to be more of an ' examplary guide of 'best practices'.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by oracle

...The lesson behind Judas's death is not solely about his guilt for betraying Jesus. If you anyalze characters from the bible psychologically, I think you will see a more depth.

I have no problem with that. The point was to give an example of something more important than the discussion of resolving an a disharmony.

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by pah

Spong is right that the Christian messgae is lost when the bible is literally taken

I agree with a lot of what Bishop Spong says, and I agree with this. I think a move away of literalism and fundamentalism to recognize the truths that are in the Bible is essential of the Christian faith to survive and grow.