Praying to Icons. (Jesus, funeral, Jehovah, Isaiah, Revelation)

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim of this Reality

Yes No*s, your reasoning is valid and difficult to argue (aside from the the i believe; u believe debates) I often thought and was raised in the belief that icons were idols that were worshipped. Although that is the case for some people, I see now that they are just something to help focus thoughts for most, much like reading a verse during communion or before a prayer would. Personally, I still would not feel right using such (i even dislike the idea of wearing a crucifix) but i understand the other side of the issue now. Thank you for the insight.

Welcome, and I understand.

I was pretty iconoclastic for a while, but after encountering Orthodoxy...it simply changed my perspective on things, and the change wasn't easy.

I felt you were arguing against the position, and debate requires response. It is a debate forum, after all .

I'm glad that's cleared up.


However, I must disagree with your historians. We have art from the catacombs in the second century, both Jewish and Christian worship places were plastered with art, and we have reference in the second century to venerating material things. That seems to indicate that it was present early.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Joannicius

This is a great discussion as I fought the reasoning and came to a different understanding after months of wrestling with it before comming into the Orthodox Church eight years ago. The more difficult issue for me was the understanding of who Mary is and why she is given so much honor in the RC and the EO faiths.

Iconoclasm was probably the hardest doctrine for me, with Marian veneration and veneration of saints the easiest. I was about as iconoclastic as it comes .

[Joannicius]

If you walk into any Orthodox Temple you will see behind the altar area an icon of the "Lady of the Sign" which is a simular icon to those found in the catacombs behind where there altars were placed on the tombs of the martyrs. This icon show Mary, who is understood to be symbolic of The Church, with Christ being formed in her womb, just as Christ is being formed in The Church throughout the last two melenia. The tombs are also represented in our altars by having the relic or relics of Saints (Apostles, Martyrs etc.) in the altar.
If you travel into Orthodox countries you will see tombs of Saints, Priests, Bishops etc. in the nave of the church.
Here is an excellent example of which I speak:
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/i...lukeparish.cfm

[No*s]

Originally Posted by Joannicius

If you walk into any Orthodox Temple you will see behind the altar area an icon of the "Lady of the Sign" which is a simular icon to those found in the catacombs behind where there altars were placed on the tombs of the martyrs. This icon show Mary, who is understood to be symbolic of The Church, with Christ being formed in her womb, just as Christ is being formed in The Church throughout the last two melenia. The tombs are also represented in our altars by having the relic or relics of Saints (Apostles, Martyrs etc.) in the altar.
If you travel into Orthodox countries you will see tombs of Saints, Priests, Bishops etc. in the nave of the church.
Here is an excellent example of which I speak:
http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/i...lukeparish.cfm

Thank you . I was unaware of that little bit of history. It certainly personalizes the point by focusing on one icon that still exists from the day.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by No*s

Thank you . I was unaware of that little bit of history. It certainly personalizes the point by focusing on one icon that still exists from the day.

Here's a bit more:

"The tourist who has visited the catacombs, is familiar, among tokens of the first rude art of Christians, with relics of various articles, realizing this idea of Clement’s, that even our furniture should be distinctively Christian. In Pompeii, one finds lamps and other vessels marked by heathenish devices, some of them gross and revolting. On the contrary, these Christian utensils bear the sacred monograms ΧΡ, ΑΩ, or the figure of the fish, conveying to the user, by the letters of the Greek word for a fish ( Ι Χ Θ Υ Σ ), the initials of the words “Jesus Christ, Son of God, The Saviour.” Often we have the anchor, the palm-branch, or the cross itself. But I never looked at one of those Christian lamps without imagining its owner, singing, as it was lighted, the eventide hymn (of which see Elucidation III.), and reciting probably, therewith, the text, “Let your loins be girded, and your lamps burning,” etc. For a valuable elucidation of subjects illustrated by Christian art, see Testimony of the Catacombs, by the late Wharton B. Marriott (London, Hatchards, 1870)."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iv.html

http://www.ccel.org/ Christian Classics Ethereal Library

[No*s]

Originally Posted by SOGFPP

Here's a bit more:

"The tourist who has visited the catacombs, is familiar, among tokens of the first rude art of Christians, with relics of various articles, realizing this idea of Clement’s, that even our furniture should be distinctively Christian. In Pompeii, one finds lamps and other vessels marked by heathenish devices, some of them gross and revolting. On the contrary, these Christian utensils bear the sacred monograms ΧΡ, ΑΩ, or the figure of the fish, conveying to the user, by the letters of the Greek word for a fish ( Ι Χ Θ Υ Σ ), the initials of the words “Jesus Christ, Son of God, The Saviour.” Often we have the anchor, the palm-branch, or the cross itself. But I never looked at one of those Christian lamps without imagining its owner, singing, as it was lighted, the eventide hymn (of which see Elucidation III.), and reciting probably, therewith, the text, “Let your loins be girded, and your lamps burning,” etc. For a valuable elucidation of subjects illustrated by Christian art, see Testimony of the Catacombs, by the late Wharton B. Marriott (London, Hatchards, 1870)."
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf02.vi.iii.iv.html

http://www.ccel.org/ Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Thanks to you as well Scott .

I actually happen to have this volume. I guess I know what my reading is going to be in bed tonight .