Was it Jesus' fault? (Earth, translation, creation, disciples, hell)

[t3gah]

In the beginning God created all things or so the account in Genesis states. But in the bible book of Proverbs & John, Jesus states that he was in the beginning with God and Jesus was the one God was most found of. God created all things through Jesus to be and for Jesus.

Nothing on this earth, nature and mankind, seem to be perfect and that's right, because they aren't.

Jesus went through hell to redeem the world or so the bible says, and people marvel at this, but since Jesus knew he was going to be resurrected, the burden of being tortured and then killed was inconsequential to him because he was a ringer and he knew it.

An entity with perfect will is incapable of making mistakes. Jesus proved that because he didn't make any mistakes. Everything besides God and Jesus made mistakes including other angels.

There was no predestination is what many say, but God knew that everything was going to go bad before he created anything. Everything that was created through Jesus apparently went bad. So if Satan or whatever his name is, failed to live up to his "perfection" along with Eve and Adam, then the world going bad is Jesus' fault. Jesus was sent to earth to clean up the mess he started, that's a fact and that's why he came. The apostles and disciples were confused and blinded from being chosen when they wrote the accounts and their comments of advice were also skewed, etc. Jesus was all knowing apparently because he knew what was broken because he made it all! Blame Jesus, not God next time, when you see the horrors of the world.

Let us make man in our image...
Let us confuse their language....

Reference scriptures:

Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1:26,27; Genesis 9:6; Genesis 11:7; Proverbs 8:22-31; John 1:1-5; John 17:5-10; Colossians 1:13-20; 1 Corinthians 8:5,6; 1 Corinthians 11:7-10


I rest my case.

[robtex]

Alex what is your case and is Satan in it or not? I am lost as to the idea you are attempting to convey and am looking for clarification.

[Scuba Pete]

Yo t3gah!

Love demands a free will decision.

God wants people to love him as he loves us.

That can't happen if he FORCES us to love him.

Love is always worth the sacrifice.

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by robtex

Alex what is your case and is Satan in it or not? I am lost as to the idea you are attempting to convey and am looking for clarification.

Satan and the angels? they're just a cog is this whole messed up Jesus creation mechanism. Just like Eve, Adam and the rest of the 'human race', Jesus excluded.

The scriptures state that satan, eve, adam and the true sons of god for nephilim times all were perfect but 'forgot their places' or 'disobeyed'. All angels are said to be perfect. God is said to be perfect. Jesus is said to be perfect.

But then, Jesus states that the world being the way it is is because of satan in the garden. And still further, Paul blames eve in another scripture.

Jesus was a perfect man according to scriptures and did not forget his place nor did he disobey when on earth. Which means only Jesus and God are perfect because God didn't make any mistakes creating Jesus. It seems that only what was made after Jesus was born is going haywire.

Jesus said everything was made through him. Design changed when the task switched from God the maker to God the maker and Jesus the helper or co-maker or other.

But then God didn't make any mistakes making Jesus, so John 1:1- * must be talking about Jesus being God creating things which are all fouled up. Jesus blew the design/creation phase of the things he made. It's Jesus' fault the world is like this. IT can't be God's fault because Jesus didn't make mistakes when he was on earth.

So you can't have all in the scriptures. IF Jesus, while a human on earth had free will and was perfect didn't disobey or forget his place is a tell of perfection, then the first humans and all the remaining angels are imperfect. Which also means that Jesus made sure that those who wrote the scriptures were sufficiently brainwashed into believing the older scriptures that shift the blame from the son of god to an angel, eve & adam.

Big conspiracy biblical proportion style. This also explains why God doesn't do all of the investigating in the in the scriptures. The accounts seem to vary on who goes down to do what. Maybe the scriptures are saying the Jesus really is God and that the translations that have God as number one is wrong or reversed.

The tree in the garden was a trap. God knew that was going to happen. God and Jesus are partners in crime, but Jesus pulled the trigger.

[Scuba Pete]

but Jesus pulled the trigger.

Should I cue the Simon LeGree music???

[HelpMe]

plural of majesty...

[Pilgrim of this Reality]

I understand the logic involved in this discussion. However, it is possible (a what if scenerio) that man would have sinned without Satan's intervention simply because of free will. Satan sinned himself and was cast from heaven because he chose to. He didnt (as far as we know) have any outside influence. He just had free will. Man was created with free will and its logical to surmise that one day one of them would have decided to push the limits. The arguement of how heavenly the garden was wouldn't suffice because they didnt know any alternative and being in heaven didnt stop Satan for deciding to sin.

[jewscout]

Originally Posted by t3gah

Let us make man in our image...
Let us confuse their language....

Reference scriptures:

Genesis 1:1; Genesis 1:26,27; Genesis 9:6; Genesis 11:7; Proverbs 8:22-31;

First...
the "us" referred to in the verses in Genesis is either 1) a royal "We" that HaShem was using or 2) Targum Yonasan and the Midrash say that HaShem is speaking to the Ministering Angels.
Secondly,
Proverbs 8:22-31 is talking about the Torah "G-d created the Torah before the universe; it is manifest in Creation, preserves the world, and is a guide to all mankind" - Maimonides (Rambam)

[BUDDY]

Jesus went through hell to redeem the world or so the bible says, and people marvel at this, but since Jesus knew he was going to be resurrected, the burden of being tortured and then killed was inconsequential to him because he was a ringer and he knew it.

So then, what you are saying is that Jesus is a liar because when he was in the garden he was distressed over God's need for the sacrifice? Give me a break. Jesus was a man, who suffered the PAIN fo death in the worst way imaginable. And to top it all off, he did this KNOWING, that he had the power to stop it. He LET them take his life, so that all who call on His name can be saved. And yet you have the nerve to mock his sacrifice? Unbelievable. Just because you don't believe, doesn't mean you have to belittle those of us who do, or the One we believe in.

Nothing on this earth, nature and mankind, seem to be perfect and that's right, because they aren't.

Well, I submit to you that the only thing in this world that isn't perfect is man. Man is the one that sinned, going against God's command. Man is reason perfection was lost, and Jesus is the reason perfection can be gained again.

I think you are confused as to the nature of the Trinity. God didn't create Jesus. Jesus is God, so is the Holy Spirit and so is God the Father. They are all in one. John 1:1 also says that nothing was made possible without the Word (Jesus). So in the beginning all three of them were there and they all were responsible for the creation of all life. To try to seperate them out is Biblically incorrect, and I think the source of your confucion.

[Ronald]

How can your view of a perfect Jesus be. If he made a mistake and had to correct it?
Knowing and causing, are horses of a different color. Creating a remedy for my bad choice is perfection. Y H V H is Perfection.

Being close, don't count!