Jesus a Messiah? (Jesus Christ, tradition, translation, genesis, Christians)

[precept]

Originally Posted by jade0887

How do you explain Gen. 49:10, the verse that states that the sceptre of leadership will remain with the tribe of Judah until Shiloh or, as most Christians view it, Jesus comes? Now, here's my problem with that: Jesus is of the tribe of Judah and can't take the sceptre away from his own tribe. Any comments?

The answer to your query is found in your own question.

Jesus as human was of the tribe of Judah just by virtue of His earthly virgin mother's being of said tribe. An Israelite's lineage is determined by the father; and since Jesus is without benefit of an earthly father, He becomes a member of the tribe of Judah by choice.

The "scepter" was to be kept in "symbolic" trust in the tribe of Judah, until its Heavenly, Rightful Owner, "Shiloh" comes. Jesus then chose to become a human member of said tribe of Judah, transferring the symbolic Davidic earthly rule, of earthly Israelites to His Heavenly rule of Israelites saved as the father of all true Israelites, Abraham is saved; by faith. He then takes His Rightful Godly rolership as King of all earthly kings[including king David] and Lord of all earthly lords. And because His kingdom is not of this world;then neither is His origin to be understood as that of an earthly human tribe.

Your argument about the meanig of virgin, must in context be defined as defined by God to the Israelites. as is clear in Hebrew scripture.

Deuteronomy 22:15 makes it the responsibility of the parents of the virgin; who now just married, must provide her parents with the evidence of a broken hymen[blood] on the occasioin of her first sexual experience. This evidence is life and or death to the virgin if her husband refuses to keep her as his wife, in the event that she wasn't a virgin when she married him. The context therefore of the term virgin is clear to all except those who are in error in the understanding of the clear teaching of scripture.

Jesus being conceived in the womb of a virgin; is a conception wihout benefit of human sexual activity because Mary was a virgin in the "Israelite's sense of the meaning of the word, "virgin".


precept

[goodjewishboy]

This is taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org

In an attempt to prove the concept of the "virgin birth," the book of Matthew 1:22-23 states: "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, "Behold a virgin shall be with child and will bear a son and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which translated means, G-d with us." Missionaries claim that this is the fulfillment of a prophecy recorded in Isaiah 7:14, that actually reads: "Behold, the young woman is with child and will bear a son and she will call his name Emmanuel."

There are numerous inaccuracies in the Christian translation. For example:

1) The Hebrew word, "almah -," means a young woman, not a virgin.

2) The verse says "ha'almah--," "the young woman," not a young woman, specifying a particular woman that was known to Isaiah during his lifetime; and

3) The verse says "she will call his name Emmanuel," not "they shall call."

Even apart from these inaccuracies, if we read all of Isaiah Chapter 7, from which this verse is taken, it is obvious that Christians have taken this verse out of context.

This chapter speaks of a prophecy made to the Jewish King Ahaz to allay his fears of two invading kings (those of Damascus and of Samaria) who were preparing to invade Jerusalem, about 600 years before Jesus' birth. Isaiah's point is that these events will take place in the very near future (and not 600 years later, as Christianity claims). Verse 16 makes this abundantly clear: "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken."

In fact, in the very next chapter this prophecy is fulfilled with the birth of a son to Isaiah. As it says in Isaiah 8:4, "For before the child shall know to cry, "My father and my mother' the riches of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria." This verse entirely rules out any connection to Jesus, who would not be born for 600 years.

besides, there is a hebrew word for virgin and it's not al-mah. The word for virgin is be-tu-lah.

[precept]

Originally Posted by goodjewishboy

This chapter speaks of a prophecy made to the Jewish King Ahaz to allay his fears of two invading kings (those of Damascus and of Samaria) who were preparing to invade Jerusalem, about 600 years before Jesus' birth. Isaiah's point is that these events will take place in the very near future (and not 600 years later, as Christianity claims). Verse 16 makes this abundantly clear: "For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken."

In fact, in the very next chapter this prophecy is fulfilled with the birth of a son to Isaiah. As it says in Isaiah 8:4, "For before the child shall know to cry, "My father and my mother' the riches of Damascus and the spoils of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria." This verse entirely rules out any connection to Jesus, who would not be born for 600 years.

Saul, a member of the the highest of Jewish authority, the Sanhedrin, and a Pharisee[ the Pharisees were the ruling authority in Judaism] Paul saw Jesus as the promised Messiah....aaand Saul who was also verse in Torah; and like his fellow Pharisees interpreted Isaiah and other prophets in reference to the coming Messiah as referring to a human; a human later identified by subsequent Jewish leaders as referring to the Jewish king Hezekiah.

Even the disciples of Jesus found it difficult to accept Jesus as Messiah--Afterall "Messiah was to restore the Jewish kingdom to its former glory as enjoyed under king David"---and this being so Messiah wouild not have allowed Himself to be taken and killed. Peter echoed this disappointment when he denied knowing Jesus, after seeing that Jesus was going to be condemned to death.
So "goodjewishboy" you are not original in your belief that Jesus was not the Messiah; even His own disciples thought so as well; and because he was now dead.

Unlike you and other unbelieving Jews, the disciples while disillusioned, left room for an explanation of their dissilusionment.

Jesus, after being resurrected[as David and other old Testament prophets]had prophesied; went to
the aid of His disillusioned disciples as two of His disciples were on their way to Emmaus..."And beginning at Moses and all the prophets He explained to them the things concerning Himself".....

Saul also, with the other members of the Sanhedrin, had mis-interpreted scriptural references about Messiah, and had joined with the other Jewish leaders in condemning Jesus as an imposter to the Messianic title....He then joined with the Jewish leadership in persecuting and putting to death the followers of Jesus. It wasn't until one of Jesus' followers, Annanias explained to Saul in Damascus, and using Torah to do so; proving to Saul that Jesus was indeed Messiah; it was only then that Saul saw his error; and repented of the evil he brought on the followers of Jesus; and converted and became a follower of Jesus himself.

Official Judaism, mis-interpreted God's intentions in singling out Abraham as the father of the nation He chose to represent Him on earth. Abraham's command from God to sacrifice his only sonshould have been a clue to official Judaism that their representation of God in ceremonial sacrifices of "lambs without blemish and without spot" was an enacment of the supreme sacrifice of God Himself[He is without blemish and He is without spot]. The Passover ceremony of the Israelites deliverance from Eygptian bondage; was only the antitype of the eventual deliverance from the bondage of sin of all "Israelites"[redeemed humanity].---and like the ancient Israelites when they were delivered after the eating of the first passover meal...so also was redeemed humanity delivered from the bondage of death to the sinner, when after eating the passover meal with His disciples, Jesus, our Redeemer, the Holy God, without blemish and without spot, gave His life for the sins of humanity....And since Saul, a member of the Sanhedrin can discover this truth, then so can also all "goodJewishpeople" discover this truth as well; if they like Saul accept the true teaching of Torah.


precept

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by precept

Saul, a member of the the highest of Jewish authority, the Sanhedrin, ...

Citation?

[jewscout]

Originally Posted by jade0887

You're right, I do have a purpose. That purpose is to get people to study why the Jews reject Jesus. Most people know that most of the Jews do reject Jesus but, they don't know why. I'm just showing them why and refining my arguments against Jesus' messiahship in the process. Besides, finding out why the Jews reject Him is an exciting and informative journey. I reject Jesus like they do and I hope others do as well. Again, any specific comments on the Karaite links?
Jamie

**Long sigh.....*
Evidence that Jesus was the Messiah

[precept]

Originally Posted by Deut. 32.8

Citation?

"Deut..." Do you see
the wall or just the color the wall is painted in? Do you see just the entrance to the house, or do you see the entire structure--The Whole House?


precept

[precept]

Originally Posted by precept

"Deut..." Do you see
the wall or just the color the wall is painted in? Do you see just the entrance to the house, or do you see the entire structure--The Whole House?


precept

The scriptures do not place Paul as a member of the Jewish Sanhedrin neither do the scriptures disclaim Paul's membership in this body.

The scriptures none-the-less place Paul as a student of the Pharisee, Gamaliel...a doctor of the law Acts 5:34.

precept

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by precept

The scriptures none-the-less place Paul as a student of the Pharisee, Gamaliel...

And you stupidly assume that all students of Gamaliel were members of the Sanhedrin, then pretentiously pawn this off as fact.

[may]

Jesus christ fullfilled many outstanding messianic prophecies in the hebrew scriptures. these were regarding his early life, his ministry and his betrayal and death.

[Scuba Pete]

the wall or just the color the wall is painted in? Do you see just the entrance to the house, or do you see the entire structure--The Whole House?

They don't allow people to practice opthamology without a license on this forum...