Jesus and Michael - One and the same? (exodus, virgin)

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Personally, I do not have a problem with this at all. In my view, all the angels are emanations of God anyway, separate from but united with God. They do the will of God. Michael is archangel, above all others, most likely created first, before the others. Jesus is described as having been the Word before he was incarnated, and the Word also does the will of God. (God said "let there be light" and there was light.) The Logos is the means by which God acts, again separate from but united with God. So the highest of all angels and the Logos could be one and the same, and once Michael/Logos incarnated as a human being, he became Jesus. Once Jesus died and was ressurected, he became the Christ.

Now whether Jesus and Michael are indeed one and the same, I don't know. I can see how for a trinitarian this idea is apalling, because it takes away from the uniqueness of Jesus' divinity. But coming from my God-is-in-everything viewpoint, the idea seems as plausible as not. The only thing that I don't like about the Jesus=Michael idea is that it mars the symmetry of the four archangels - between Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, and Uriel. But I've discussed enough heresies for the day.

The Apocrypha. Archangel is one. Or is it One For All and All For One in the Apocrypha?

[may]

Of all the agents used by Jehovah to communicate His will, the foremost is the Word, the Logos, who became Jesus Christ.

THE

GREAT PRINCE GOES INTO ACTION

Daniel 12:1 reads: "During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people." This verse foretells these two distinct things regarding Michael: one, that he "is standing," suggesting a state of affairs that extends over a period of time; two, that he "will stand up," suggesting an event during that period of time. First, we want to know the period when Michael is "standing in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people." Recall that Michael is a name given to Jesus in his role as a heavenly Ruler. The reference to his "standing" reminds us of the way that this term is used elsewhere in the book of Daniel. It often refers to the action of a king, such as his taking up royal power.—Daniel 11:2-4, 7, 20, 21.

It is evident that the angel was here pointing to a period of time specified elsewhere in Bible prophecy. Jesus called it his "presence" (Greek, pa·rou·si´a), when he would rule as King in heaven. (Matthew 24:37-39) This time period is also called "the last days" and "the time of the end." (2 Timothy 3:1; Daniel 12:4, 9) Ever since that period began in 1914, Michael has been standing as King in heaven.—Compare Isaiah 11:10; Revelation 12:7-9.

When, though, does Michael "stand up"? When he rises up to take special action. This, Jesus will do in the future. Revelation 19:11-16 prophetically describes Jesus as the mighty Messianic King riding at the head of an angelic army and bringing destruction upon enemies of God. Daniel 12:1 continues: "And there will certainly occur a time of distress such as has not been made to occur since there came to be a nation until that time." As Jehovah’s Chief Executioner, Christ will bring an end to the entire wicked system of things during the foretold "great tribulation."—Matthew 24:21; Jeremiah 25:33; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; Revelation 7:14; 16:14, 16.

l

[kassi]

What about Heb 1:5, "For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, This day have I begotten thee?" The main point of Hebrews 1 is to elevate Jesus above the angels (an elevation that an Almighty would not need). Hence the ARCH in ARCHangel.

His elevation above the angels is true. That is- Mans elavation.

Hebrew 2:6 But as one testified in a certain place, saying:
What is man that you are mindful of him, or the son of man that you take care of him?
You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, and set him (man) over the works of your hands.
You have put all things in subjection under his feet.
Now read: Hebrew 1:13 But to which of the angels has he ever said: Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies Your footstool?
Then read: Hebrew 2:5 For he has not put the world to come of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

Heb1:2-4
"2has in these last days spoken to us by the Son, whom He has appointed heir of all, through whom also He made the ages,a 3who being the brightness of the esteem and the exact representation of His sub- stance, and sustaining all by the word of His power, having made a cleansing of our sins through Himself, sat down at the right hand of the Greatness on high, 4having become so much better than the messengers, as He has inherited a more excellent Name than them."

Hebrew 1:4 Having become so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance
obtained a more excellent Name than they.

The Inheritance was promised to Abraham and his Seed. Not to angels.

Hebrew 2:14-17 Inasmuch as the chrildren have partaken of flesh and blood, He himself likewise shared in the same. That through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For indeed he does not give aid to angels but he does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
Therefor in all things he had to be made like his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitation for the sins of the people.

[may]

As it is Jehovah’s will and arrangement for Jesus to resurrect the dead. (John 6:38-40) It is God’s trumpet that sounds the call for the dead to come back to life, just as God instructed that trumpets be used for an assembly of his people in ancient times. (Numbers 10:1-10) Jesus issues "a commanding call" to the dead to come forth, just as he did on occasion while on earth. (John 11:43) But now he calls, not with a man’s voice as he did then, but with all the power of "an archangel’s voice" (en pho·ne´ arkh·ag·ge´lou). However, only an archangel can call with an archangel’s voice! And no one but Jesus has been given the authority to resurrect the dead. So this prophecy gives additional strong reason for identifying Jesus with the archangel, Michael.

[t3gah]

Ok, so far everyone is establishing that Jesus is Michael through scripture verifications. My question still stands about the identity of the one who will come back.

Jesus tells his apostles when he's ascending to heaven that he, Jesus, will return in the same way. He doesn't say he'll be back as his alter persona. Which then falls back to my other problem. Why didn't God just tell Joseph and Mary that they should call their son, Michael & Immanuel instead of Jesus & Immanuel? If the scriptures are inspired of God, why are they so convoluted to the point of thousands of years of confusion? And the most impprtant question on people's minds is this:

Will Jesus be himself or will he be Michael when he returns?

[No*s]

Originally Posted by t3gah

Ok, so far everyone is establishing that Jesus is Michael through scripture verifications.

Actually, I not everyone affirms that. Just some of us didn't want to box shadows anymore, and the person that made the most reasonable discussion partner understood my points, so we called it quits.

EDIT:

I would also add that NetDoc and Scott were not pacified by the counter-arguments.

[HelpMe]

^*me?

[No*s]

Originally Posted by HelpMe

^*me?

If that is asking if my post was directed at you, not directly, no. Though, I didn't exclude you from my thought process either. It wasn't a personal post. I was simply describing how I felt and why I stopped posting much. I'm sure the other Trinitarians felt the same way.

[oracle]

Men have been symbolized as angels in the bible, I think particularly the "sons of God". I've seen some funny ideas on this one, however the "Sons of God" is a distinction from the "sons of men", the sons of men being those who alienate themselves from God and conform to their physical, materialistic, and animalistic manifestation.

Jesus didn't preach that he was better than anyone, but practiced humility. I would say that no one has status in the kingdom of heaven, but we are all one and the same. No one is greater or lesser at some point.

I think it's possible Michael might symbolize something other than an angel. I don't take Satan for being a literal angel, but most of these angels are symbols. Now in an old orthodox Jewish View, these are symbols.

Jesus used a lot of parables and symbology, and if you think He's going to literally come back on a cloud, to believe it literally contradicts the statement he made that he will come as a theif.

I would also assume that the angels in the book of revelations symbolize people in the end times, the angels that gather weeds and bundle them up are people.

The dead in Christ will rise first,

Anyways, the "rapture" itself is symbology. You are not going to hear a trumpet, your not going to see people vanish, and your not gonna see a bunch of walking zombies. It's symbology and it symbolizes spiritual awakening, that those who are spiritually dead or asleep will rise from their "graves".

To believe that such things are literal in the book of Revelations is a big mistake.

[hoomer]

whoa lil..so many posts to read...when I get a chance......

1st I was told by my GF that soem traditons aready see Michael as christ.....I'll aSK HER FOR CONFIRmation though......

Lets just say somethings...and apologize if I am repeating anyone here already.....

There are actualy 10 Arch angels....lil.....the 4 you mention are the 4 "main ones"........and are assciated with the 4 directins...and 4 elements and YHVH

air...uriel.....east
fire...michael....south
water....Gbriel.....west
earth....Raphael....north

other arch anges incude.... satchiel..metatron.....sandelphon etc..though of course there's a centuries long argument about this...

the 4 directions/elements can be seen in christianity(main stream) in the form of YHVH......and in the bibical text where we see a tree growing in eden surrounded by 4 rivers.....which gives us the 7 directions......&7 days of creation...7 directions...etc etc ..7 is an important number)of up down, before, behind, left , right and withinor encircing...... theres and arch angel for each directin...blah blah...ANYWAY....

the number 7 can also be seen in the fact circumcion occurs on the 8th day (1 more than 7,..making it 1 more than,...source "the sefer yetzirah" by aryeh kaplan) which is followed by the catholic tradition of baptism on the 8th day too....catholics are kinda the 1st messianic jews....lol....


Michael....who's name means "Like God"...embodies "uprightness" and supporting.........michae is a warrior and is ften seen in armout slaying a dragon...

Now if we look at qabbalah....we see the 6th emanation...is that of the SUN....the sun of the emanation (6th) caled tiffereth

Tiphareth: The sixth emanation on the Tree of Life.It is the sphere of
beauty, harmonizing the forces of mercy(Chesed) and Judgement
(Geburah), higher on the Tree. Occultists identify Tiphareth
as the sphere of spiritual REBIRTH, and ascribe to it the
Solar Deities such as RA,APOLLO, and MITHRA as well as OSIRIS
and JESUS CHRIST. The TAROT card TEMPERANCE identifies the
direct mystical ascent to Tipareth from Malkuth(the physical).
http://www.textfiles.com/occult/cabala1.occ

So we see Michael and CHrist share a qabbalistic placement......as mediatiors...between spirt and form....as the 6th is caled b\eauty as is is the beaituf baancing harmony on the tree...at the heart of all things.....just as the physica sun is at the heart of our solar system.....yes the ancients knew about a helio centric reality......

Christ came to bring the sword....to right wrongs and reform....and re balance.....

on another note....

if we follow the Rosicrucian ideas...we see Christ wil re appear as a woman...in the what rosicrucians call the 3rd flood.... (the 1st was noah's...the 2nd is christ..and the 3rd wi be the holy spirit....)

...of course this is related to the trinity father mother chid...or creator destroyer saviour...





This formula is the principal and most characteristic formula of Osiris, of the Redemption of Mankind. "I" is Isis, Nature, ruined by "A", Apophis the Destroyer, and restored to life by the Redeemer Osiris.

There is a quite different formula in which I is the father, O the Mother, A the child --- and yet another, in which I.A.O. are all fathers of different kinds balanced by H.H.H., 3 Mothers, to complete the Universe. In a third, the true formula of the Beast 666, I and O are the opposites which form the field for the operation of A. But this is a higher matter unsuited for this elementary handbook. See, however, Liber Samekh, Point II, Section J.

The same idea is expressed by the Rosicrucian formula of the Trinity:




"Ex Deo nascimur. In Jesu Morimur Per Spiritum Sanctum reviviscimus." (something like : in God we are born, in christ we die and in the hoy spirit we are reborn"..I frget the exact translation)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/aba/chap5.htm


"The Height of Knowedge is to know nothing" ----CRC