Justification

[Fish-Hunter]

Would you like to discuss and debate the doctrine of justification? I was hoping that a Roman Catholic Christian and an LDS Christian could post the official Roman Catholic and LDS position on justification. I believe the heart of the gospel and the Christian message is found in the doctrine of justification. I am not Lutheran, and do not follow Martin Luther to define truth. However, I agree with Luther on his understanding on the doctrine of justification.

Smalcald Articles:

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[32]

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Would you like to discuss and debate the doctrine of justification? I was hoping that a Roman Catholic Christian and an LDS Christian could post the official Roman Catholic and LDS position on justification. I believe the heart of the gospel and the Christian message is found in the doctrine of justification. I am not Lutheran, and do not follow Martin Luther to define truth. However, I agree with Luther on his understanding on the doctrine of justification.

Smalcald Articles:

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us ... Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).[32]

Do all of the Christians on Religious Forums agree that we are justified by faith alone? Are we agreeing that we are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone? Within this understanding, we are giving God all the glory for saving the sinner, and there is no boasting in the flesh of personal acts of righteousness. Are we saying that our acts of obediences to the commands of God is done out of gratitude and thankfulness for what God has done in Christ on our behalf?

[Dunemeister]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Do all of the Christians on Religious Forums agree that we are justified by faith alone? Are we agreeing that we are saved by grace alone through the instrument of faith alone on the basis of the person and work of Christ alone? Within this understanding, we are giving God all the glory for saving the sinner, and there is no boasting in the flesh of personal acts of righteousness. Are we saying that our acts of obediences to the commands of God is done out of gratitude and thankfulness for what God has done in Christ on our behalf?

Or are we saying that we're bored of the Arminian/Calvinist debate?

[angellous_evangellous]

I disagree with Luther regarding justification by faith...

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dunemeister

Or are we saying that we're bored of the Arminian/Calvinist debate?

Hi my Christian friend,

Of course we are never bored of that topic. I was on an unplanned vacation from this site, but I'm back now. Should we discuss election, predestination, or any of the 5 points on this thread? Why do people get mad that the Almighty God chooses some sinners as vessels of mercy (rom 9), and passes over the rest to receive what they deserve (wrath of God in eternity)?

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

I disagree with Luther regarding justification by faith...

If you disagree, how do you believe wretched sinners like me and you are justified before a Holy God with a consuming fire against those who sin and rebel against Him?

[sojourner]

Why do people get mad that the Almighty God chooses some sinners as vessels of mercy (rom 9), and passes over the rest to receive what they deserve (wrath of God in eternity)?

Because even we humans (the civilized ones, at any rate) recognize that the death penalty is harsh and uncalled for. What greater punishment is an eternity of suffering? For what? A very human mistake, wrought from ignorance. If we who are human recognize the concept of the punishment fitting the crime, how much more does God recognize (and practice) that concept. That's why God is merciful and forbearing. In what way does any "sinner" "deserve" an eternity of hell? Why would you want to shortchange God's mercy like that?

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

If you disagree, how do you believe wretched sinners like me and you are justified before a Holy God with a consuming fire against those who sin and rebel against Him?

Maybe we're not "wretched sinners," but "beloved children." Even rebellious children are not destroyed eternally.

[Fish-Hunter]

Quote: Fish-Hunter
Why do people get mad that the Almighty God chooses some sinners as vessels of mercy (rom 9), and passes over the rest to receive what they deserve (wrath of God in eternity)?

Originally Posted by sojourner

Because even we humans (the civilized ones, at any rate) recognize that the death penalty is harsh and uncalled for. What greater punishment is an eternity of suffering? For what? A very human mistake, wrought from ignorance. If we who are human recognize the concept of the punishment fitting the crime, how much more does God recognize (and practice) that concept. That's why God is merciful and forbearing. In what way does any "sinner" "deserve" an eternity of hell? Why would you want to shortchange God's mercy like that?

Why do you think Jesus Christ had to die? If you downplay and miminize the consequences of sin according to the Scriptures, you indirectly minimize the glorious grace of God, revealed in the person and work of Jesus Christ who lived and died on behalf of sinners who are deserving of the eternal wrath of God. Christ bore the consequences for our sin as our substitute, receving what we deserve.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I think Christ had to die so we (the Elect) could escape the comming day of judgement and the eternal wrath of God. I try to base my understanding of Christianity according to the Scriptures and not personal speculation and opinions. Please let me know why you think Jesus Christ had to die.

The Judgment at Christ's Coming

This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thes 1