Cleansing Herod's Temple (Jesus, priests, crucified, virgin, virtual)

[DirtyHarry]

Originally Posted by jewscout

Or so we're told by people who picked and chose from over a dozen "gospels" centuries after the crucifiction.

Well, I apologize for my ignorance in using these "gospels" as my only source of information. I have to admit I don't do much outside reading. I will try to be more careful and do some more research.

[dan]

Originally Posted by DirtyHarry

I disagree, I think that it is obvious that the Jewish leaders of the day manipulated Jewish and Roman law systems to have Jesus specifically crucified. Technically, yes, Romans nailed him to a cross, but only becuase the Jews would have it no other way.

The Jews would have stoned Him to death, but this would have broken the Roman law and none of the Jews wanted His blood directly on their hands. Pilate told them to do it themselves and they didn't want to. The Bible says the prophecy of his crucifixion had to be fulfilled, and the Romans were the only ones who could do it. The Jews fulfilled prophecy unknowingly. Had they been doing it on purpose there would have been many more people saying, "Hey man, maybe this is more than just a coincedence that He's fulfilling all these prophecies." The Jews had no reason to desire a crucifixion specifically, as well.

Chuck -- If you were to walk into a Mall, museum or any large public institution today and start wreaking havoc, you'd at the least expect to be forcibly ejected. The jews might not have taken him out and crucified him, but no "sensible Jew" would have stood idly by as some violent nutter rampaged through his temple and place of business.

Interesting question. An author asks himself the same question:

"Why did not this multitude of ignorant pilgrims resist? Why did these greedy chafferers content themselves with dark scowls and muttered maledictions, while they suffered their oxen and sheep to be chased into the streets and themselves ejected, and their money flung rolling on the floor, by one who was then young and unknown, and in the garb of despised Galilee? Necause sin is weakness; because there is in the world nothing so abject as a guilty conscience, nothing so invincible as the sweeping tide of a godlike indignation against all that is base and wrong. How could those paltry sacreligious buyers and sellers, conscious of wrongdoing, oppose that scathing rebuke, or face the lightning of those eyes that were enkindled by an outraged holiness? Because vice cannot stand for one minute before virtue's uplifted arm. Base and groveling as they were, these money-mongering Jews felt, in all that remnant of their souls which was not yet eaten away by infidelity and avarice, that the Son of Man was right"

-James Talmage, "Jesus The Christ"

The leaders who were too far gone to see that He was right feared an uprising brought on by His arrest. They wanted to do it quietly. This was not going to be the day, so they let Him go.

[Scuba Pete]

Nothing was going to happen to Jesus until HE allowed it!

With God, all things are possible.

It's hard to accept the supernatural, but that is no proof against it.

Moses ground the golden calf, burned it, mixed it into water and FORCED the Isrealites to drink the mess. God doesn't mess around. BTW, Moses is cited as being the MEEKEST man who ever lived. Now that changes my idea of meek!

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by Net Doc

With God, all things are possible.

What's your point? I could write a story about how God wrote me messages in my Fruit Loops, but that doesn't mean it happened, even if "with God, all things are possible."

Would the apologists concede that this narrative was at least possibly fictional?

[Christopher Krajewski]

By defering to this point of view of discussion you can best say in this sort of deterministic VAIN it is the Roman Empires fault that the Jews are suffering till the end of Time in the World, not their own. Sharon the pig wants that Jews be responsible for all their own acts as well as the right to exist as a Nation.

[Scuba Pete]

Ooooh, I hate the word "apologist"! It sounds so mealy mouthed!

Spinkles, now why should I concede that it was "possibly fictional"? Do we have an eyewitness that contradicts this testimony?

The REAL problem is that you are trying to "disprove" a supernatural being using natural criteria. That dog just won't hunt! You are trying to limit God to human frailness. No, it's not terribly convenient for non-believers when God chooses to not act in a human fashion.

As for your fruitloops... everyone knows that God only speaks through Alphabits. Get real man!

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

The REAL problem is that you are trying to "disprove" a supernatural being using natural criteria. That dog just won't hunt!

Well said.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by Net Doc

Spinkles, now why should I concede that it was "possibly fictional"? Do we have an eyewitness that contradicts this testimony?

Do we have an eyewitness that contradicts my testimony of the Miracle of Spinkles' Fruit Loops? Deut already pointed out some inconsistencies between the story and what we know of the history of the temple.

Originally Posted by Net Doc

The REAL problem is that you are trying to "disprove" a supernatural being using natural criteria.

No, the real problem is that we have before us a collection of apparent myths and fabrications which most of us would never take seriously had we not been raised in a predominantly Christian culture. I can't "disprove" any story that invokes the supernatural (after all, with faries anything is possible ) and I certainly can't do it if a person presupposes the validity of the story.

[Feathers in Hair]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

What's your point? I could write a story about how God wrote me messages in my Fruit Loops, but that doesn't mean it happened, even if "with God, all things are possible."

(Just for the record, God has written me a message in my Fruit Loops. The message, oddly enough, has always been 'OOoooooo.') (This quote brought to you by "The Family Guy.")