Rewards in Heaven (Jesus Christ, ritual, salvation, grace, blood)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

You will have to supply me with more Scripture to prove that one, but go ahead and shoot.

I thought I did. I think the two scriptures I mentioned indicate that Jesus went to Paradise after His death, but hadn't been to Heaven until after He saw Mary on Easter morning.

Again, I'm not completely sure the exact order things will come about, but to my best guess is that all people will stand before God immediately or soon after death for some if not all judgment.

This tells me that judgment could very well be immediate after one dies. Notice that the man in Hell is pleading with Abraham to warn his family about his misery. If judgment day was at the "end" so to speak, there would be no need to warn anyone. In other words if judgment was at the end of time as Revelation might suggest, then this story is at odds with a more literal interpretation of Revelation. I feel that Revelation is written symbolically, do you?

Okay, here's what I think (and, not so coincidentally, what what Church teaches ). I hope you don't mind if I quote LDS author, Coke Newell, on this subject, because I love how he writes and he does a much better job of explaining this belief than I could. (So that you don't mistake his words for mine, I'll post his in red.)

"The moment of death, at which the spirit leaves the physical body, initiates a preliminary judgment only, a very general, broad-stroke kind of move.... This Paradise -- not Heaven, but a proximate place of rest and refuge and beauty -- will welcome even those such as the man hung on the cross contingous to Christ: a convicted thief receiving, in his own words, 'the due reward' of his actions.... This Paradise will give time and opportunity to 'a vast multitude,' and 'innumerable company' to hear the gospel and either accept or reject its principles before a final judgment.

The early stages of this process occur now and have been occurring since the first human being died. An initial judgment places one in Paradise or the spirit prison."

The scriptures speak of Jesus' visit to the spirit realm during the three days His body lay in the tomb. He supposedly not only saw the thief who hung next to Him on the cross, but also preached His gospel to "the spirits in Prison/Hell" (see 1 Peter 3). Presumably, this wasn't so that He could finish up His sermon by saying, "Tough luck, guys. It's too bad you didn't get it right while you were on Earth, because now you're going to burn for eternity." It would only make sense for Him to have taught them His gospel if He were going to give them the opportunity to accept it when He was done.

Anyway, we believe that Paradise and the Spirit Prison/Hell continue to exist today and that the gospel of Jesus Christ is continuing to be taught at this time. Your story of the rich man and Lazarus fits in perfectly with this doctrine. We believe that even though it is important for us to accept Jesus Christ during our mortal lives, those who have not been given that opportunity, and even those who have, but who, for reasons only God understands, did not embrace it, will be able to have some additional time to learn and grow before the Final Judgment as spoken of in Revelation, when all will stand before God to be judged. Coke Newell continues:

"Although every soul among the dead in either realm will someday hear with their ears and acknowledg with absolute clarity that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer who died for them, none will be forced to accept His teachings or His actions on their behalf."

In answer to your question about the book of Revelation, I believe it to be written symbolically, but that the symbolism does teach a lesson about what's going to happen when Christ returns to begin His millennial reign. I believe that those in Paradise will rise at the first resurrection, receive their newly perfected and immortal bodies and be welcomed into Heaven. Those in the Spirit Prison/Hell will be given an additional thousand years (the Millennium) to pay the price for their own sins, since they refused Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf. At the end of the thousand years, they will be resurrected and will also be permitted to enter Heaven. They will, however, receive a lesser degree of heavenly glory than did the righteous.

I've probably got you totally confused now. If I did, I'm sorry.

[Jeremy Mason]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I thought I did. I think the two scriptures I mentioned indicate that Jesus went to Paradise after His death, but hadn't been to Heaven until after He saw Mary on Easter morning.

Okay, here's what I think (and, not so coincidentally, what what Church teaches ). I hope you don't mind if I quote LDS author, Coke Newell, on this subject, because I love how he writes and he does a much better job of explaining this belief than I could. (So that you don't mistake his words for mine, I'll post his in red.)

"The moment of death, at which the spirit leaves the physical body, initiates a preliminary judgment only, a very general, broad-stroke kind of move.... This Paradise -- not Heaven, but a proximate place of rest and refuge and beauty -- will welcome even those such as the man hung on the cross contingous to Christ: a convicted thief receiving, in his own words, 'the due reward' of his actions.... This Paradise will give time and opportunity to 'a vast multitude,' and 'innumerable company' to hear the gospel and either accept or reject its principles before a final judgment.

The early stages of this process occur now and have been occurring since the first human being died. An initial judgment places one in Paradise or the spirit prison."

The scriptures speak of Jesus' visit to the spirit realm during the three days His body lay in the tomb. He supposedly not only saw the thief who hung next to Him on the cross, but also preached His gospel to "the spirits in Prison/Hell" (see 1 Peter 3). Presumably, this wasn't so that He could finish up His sermon by saying, "Tough luck, guys. It's too bad you didn't get it right while you were on Earth, because now you're going to burn for eternity." It would only make sense for Him to have taught them His gospel if He were going to give them the opportunity to accept it when He was done.

Anyway, we believe that Paradise and the Spirit Prison/Hell continue to exist today and that the gospel of Jesus Christ is continuing to be taught at this time. Your story of the rich man and Lazarus fits in perfectly with this doctrine. We believe that even though it is important for us to accept Jesus Christ during our mortal lives, those who have not been given that opportunity, and even those who have, but who, for reasons only God understands, did not embrace it, will be able to have some additional time to learn and grow before the Final Judgment as spoken of in Revelation, when all will stand before God to be judged. Coke Newell continues:

"Although every soul among the dead in either realm will someday hear with their ears and acknowledg with absolute clarity that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer who died for them, none will be forced to accept His teachings or His actions on their behalf."

In answer to your question about the book of Revelation, I believe it to be written symbolically, but that the symbolism does teach a lesson about what's going to happen when Christ returns to begin His millennial reign. I believe that those in Paradise will rise at the first resurrection, receive their newly perfected and immortal bodies and be welcomed into Heaven. Those in the Spirit Prison/Hell will be given an additional thousand years (the Millennium) to pay the price for their own sins, since they refused Christ's atoning sacrifice on their behalf. At the end of the thousand years, they will be resurrected and will also be permitted to enter Heaven. They will, however, receive a lesser degree of heavenly glory than did the righteous.

I've probably got you totally confused now. If I did, I'm sorry.

Actually, I was expecting you to illustrate the after life like this because I have been studying Mormonism for sometime now.

I have to say that your beliefs allow people more room to come to grips with Christ. If it is so, I'm no worse off than I'm now. I've heard that Mormons believe that one day, "the believers/Mormons" will become gods of their own planet. Sounds odd to me, is it true?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Mason

Actually, I was expecting you to illustrate the after life like this because I have been studying Mormonism for sometime now.

I didn't know that's what you were after. I'm still not quite sure what you mean. If you have some specific questions, I could try to answer them.

I have to say that your beliefs allow people more room to come to grips with Christ. If it is so, I'm no worse off than I'm now.

True. In the book I quoted from by Coke Newell, he has a chapter called, "The Biggest Heaven and the Littlest Hell." That's a pretty accurate way of putting it.

I've heard that Mormons believe that one day, "the believers/Mormons" will become gods of their own planet. Sounds odd to me, is it true?

Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. That does sound pretty odd. It's getting late, and I'm off to bed, but I'd be happy to talk to you more about it tomorrow.

[Jeremy Mason]

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[quote]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I didn't know that's what you were after. I'm still not quite sure what you mean. If you have some specific questions, I could try to answer them.

I've probably got you totally confused now. If I did, I'm sorry.

You didn't confuse me.

Well, I wouldn't put it quite that way. That does sound pretty odd. It's getting late, and I'm off to bed, but I'd be happy to talk to you more about it tomorrow.

I'm glad to hear your skeptic on the planetary vision. I talk at you later.

Peace

[Heneni]

Hello Jeremy!

How you doing today?

I believe that paradise and heaven is not the same place. I believe paradise is where all the spirits that were made alive with christ on the cross went after his crucifixtion. Its like a holding place for our spirits. Hence Jesus and the thief found themselves in the same place on that 'day'. He took the thief there. He also took you there. It is from there that you are incarnated onto this earth.

Heaven is where the father is. It is where we will go when we get our resurrected bodies. If we go to heaven after death, then why would it be necessary to resurrect us with new bodies, if we can be with him as spirits with no body when we die? There were many saints of old walking around after his resurrection too. I believe they had resurrected bodies and is now with the father in heaven.

Jesus told Mary not to touch him, since he has not accended to his father, but Thomas touched him . Im not quite sure why Jesus said this to mary.

Jesus said that he goes to prepare a place for us. This place is not paradise, but a place in heaven. The only other people I believe is already in heaven, are the martyres.

Heneni

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Heneni

I believe that paradise and heaven is not the same place. I believe paradise is where all the spirits that were made alive with christ on the cross went after his crucifixtion. Its like a holding place for our spirits. Hence Jesus and the thief found themselves in the same place on that 'day'.

I agree with you up to this point, Heneni.

He took the thief there. He also took you there. It is from there that you are incarnated onto this earth.

I'm not sure how you're arriving at this belief. Could you explain further.

Heaven is where the father is. It is where we will go when we get our resurrected bodies. If we go to heaven after death, then why would it be necessary to resurrect us with new bodies, if we can be with him as spirits with no body when we die? There were many saints of old walking around after his resurrection too. I believe they had resurrected bodies and is now with the father in heaven.

I agree with this, more or less.

Jesus told Mary not to touch him, since he has not accended to his father, but Thomas touched him . Im not quite sure why Jesus said this to mary.

The Bible doesn't elaborate on why Jesus didn't want Mary to touch Him before He's ascended to Heaven. However, He told her to go tell His Apostles that He was going to ascend to His Father. Presumably, once He did that, He returned to appear to His Apostles, and then specifically instructed Thomas to touch Him.

Jesus said that he goes to prepare a place for us. This place is not paradise, but a place in heaven. The only other people I believe is already in heaven, are the martyres.

I'm curious as to why you believe the martyrs are already in heaven, Heneni.