I want communion!!!! (Jesus Christ, ritual, blood, churches, scriptures)

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by Muffled

Evidently your idea of what constitutes a Christian attitude and what does not differs from mine. You probably think your churche's rules are God inspired but I view them as man made and contrary to the spirit of God. I am not sure what you consider acknowlegement. The Roman Catholic church exists. Is that what you meant? I do not believe that the Roman Catholic church has apostolic authority or even if there is such a thing. I have lots of ideas but that doesn't mean you are going to agree with them.

Ideas are fine, but it's when you go criticising things you know nothing about is where the problem starts.

[rheff78]

Originally Posted by sojourner

I know that sometimes it sounds as though I don't like Catholics, or the RCC. In fact, I have great respect for the RCC, and I have many dear friends who are Catholic. I do have some problems with that branch of the Church -- such as the openness of the Table, and the ordination of women. I don't think I would go so far as to call doctrine or practice "Godless rules," even if I do have a problem with them. I know that we're all limited human beings -- even the Pope -- and that we all operate within the parameters of our understanding. The Catholic faith is a beautiful, ancient, and honorable thing. I am proud to call Catholics "brother" and "sister," even if I disagree in some areas of doctrine, practice and polity.

Agreed, and I feel the same as you.
One thing though, what is your problem with the ordination of women? Is it with the Catholic Church or were you referring to something else? Is it that you're upset we won't ordain women?

[crystalonyx]

Originally Posted by rheff78

ALright, here we go:

Unlike protestant churches who believe communion is taken just as a symbol, the Catholic Church believes in what we call transubstantiation, meaning that wafer of unleavened bread actually turns in to the body and blood of Jesus Christ. So, in order to take Communion at a Catholic Church you must be a Catholic who believes this takes place. If you don't believe it and take communion you're making light of the whole reason the Catholics take communion. Hope that helps.

Wow, I went to a mass once when I was much younger and took communion, what was I thinking?

[crystalonyx]

It does seem that someone could do a check on the "holy" wine to see if it had changed to blood.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by rheff78

Agreed, and I feel the same as you.
One thing though, what is your problem with the ordination of women? Is it with the Catholic Church or were you referring to something else? Is it that you're upset we won't ordain women?

the problem I have with the RCC is its refusal to ordain women to either the presbyterate or the episcopate.

[Scott1]

Listen... I'm all for this groovy "I'm ok.. you're ok" trip... have at it... do your thing. I'll try to explain one last time:

Everyone is welcome to come to a Catholic Mass... there is more to our worship than a persons selfish desire to receive Communion. Come.... be fed by the Word in communion with your fellow Christians. We can say a few "Hail Mary's" and I'll take you through the Stations after Mass. Deal?

No one.... NO ONE... has the right to impose their beliefs upon another. Period. Dress it all up in cheery, ecumenical tones, but in fact all you are doing is trying to attack what I believe.

The Eucharist is a type of the Lord's Supper.... this was a specific event and a closed table.

We believe:
The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.
...and if you don't believe this, why would you lie and accept communion?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 3

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Scott1

Listen... I'm all for this groovy "I'm ok.. you're ok" trip... have at it... do your thing. I'll try to explain one last time:

Everyone is welcome to come to a Catholic Mass... there is more to our worship than a persons selfish desire to receive Communion. Come.... be fed by the Word in communion with your fellow Christians. We can say a few "Hail Mary's" and I'll take you through the Stations after Mass. Deal?

No one.... NO ONE... has the right to impose their beliefs upon another. Period. Dress it all up in cheery, ecumenical tones, but in fact all you are doing is trying to attack what I believe.

The Eucharist is a type of the Lord's Supper.... this was a specific event and a closed table.

We believe:
The whole Church is united with the offering and intercession of Christ. Since he has the ministry of Peter in the Church, the Pope is associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, wherein he is named as the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church. The bishop of the place is always responsible for the Eucharist, even when a priest presides; the bishop's name is mentioned to signify his presidency over the particular Church, in the midst of his presbyterium and with the assistance of deacons. The community intercedes also for all ministers who, for it and with it, offer the Eucharistic sacrifice:

Let only that Eucharist be regarded as legitimate, which is celebrated under [the presidency of] the bishop or him to whom he has entrusted it.Through the ministry of priests the spiritual sacrifice of the faithful is completed in union with the sacrifice of Christ the only Mediator, which in the Eucharist is offered through the priests' hands in the name of the whole Church in an unbloody and sacramental manner until the Lord himself comes.
...and if you don't believe this, why would you lie and accept communion?

Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 2 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 1 ARTICLE 3

first of all, I don't think it's fair for you to assume that a non-Catholic's intention in making Holy Communion is "selfish" -- implying that a Catholic's intention is not. How do you know the intention of any but yourself. That shouldn't even be used to justify the policy of a closed Table.

Second, I agree with your quotation in green. the Pope would be associated with every celebration of the Eucharist, since there is only one Eucharist. And, in your own Preface to the Eucharistic Prayer, it is said that "It is a good and joyful thing, always and everywhere to give thanks to you, Holy Father..." (The term, Eucharist, comes from the Greek word for "thanks.") Therefore, whenever bread is broken in the midst of the assembly, for purposes of uniting with Christ in his sacrifice -- wherever we participate in that anamnesis, it is a good and joyful thing, in which the Pope (as well as all Christians) is spiritually present. Even though we use different terminology, I serve my congregation as presbyter, and celebrate the Eucharist at the pleasure of the region (diocese), which has a bishop (or regional minister).

Your quotation would seem to imply that I would be welcome at the Table of Christ...no matter where it is located. Especially since I recognize the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

[Scott1]

Originally Posted by sojourner

first of all, I don't think it's fair for you to assume that a non-Catholic's intention in making Holy Communion is "selfish" -- implying that a Catholic's intention is not. How do you know the intention of any but yourself. That shouldn't even be used to justify the policy of a closed Table.

Did I address the post to you personally? NO. Look at the thread title. Furthermore, I still believe that ANY insistance that a person MUST be allowed to partake of the Sacrament as selfish... if you believe your Communion to be sufficient, why the need to partake in ours? There are many other ways to come together as Christians.... I would say a good start would be not telling a brother in Christ that we "put Christians to shame"..... polemics are not a great way to enter into communion... IMO.

Second, I agree with your quotation in green.

You believe that Pope Benedict is the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church?

Your quotation would seem to imply that I would be welcome at the Table of Christ...no matter where it is located. Especially since I recognize the true presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

I don't doubt your personal beliefs... but they are not ROMAN CATHOLIC beliefs and as such, prevent your participation in ROMAN CATHOLIC SACRAMENTS. I just don't get what is so difficult to understand about that.

In Christ,
S

[sojourner]

if you believe your Communion to be sufficient, why the need to partake in ours?

As I said earlier, there's no such thing as "yours," "mine," or "ours" when it comes to Eucharist. Eucharist belongs to Christ. If I happen to be visiting a Catholic parish for Mass, and Christ is there, I imagine that Christ is inviting to his Table with the rest of the family. I have the same need to partake as you, or any other Catholic person has.

You believe that Pope Benedict is the sign and servant of the unity of the universal Church?

Yes, just as I believe that the Archbishop of Canterbury, and the Orthodox Patriarch, and our own General Minister are signs of the unity of the universal Church, in their own ways.

ROMAN CATHOLIC SACRAMENTS. I just don't get what is so difficult to understand about that.

I just don't get why it's so difficult for you to understand that the sacraments are not "Roman Catholic, or Orthodox, or Lutheran, or Anglican -- they're Christian. They should be shared with all Christians -- in fact, the very theology of the universality of Eucharist demands it.