LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Sola'lor]

This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread.

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

**Thanks for correcting my error and I welcome it! I'm not sure if that one verse is even close to imply that there would be a wholesale apostasy of the Christian church. What happened to Joseph Smith's translation of the Christian Bible...not good enough for the LDS Church to use? Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible. I would love to read in context whatever Bible verses you can come up with. Does the Christian Bible ever point to the restoration movement of the LDS Church and a prophet of Joseph Smith? The other sheep is the Gentiles. If you wish to discuss, maybe you could start another thread and I would love to particpate. But before you start, can the Mormon Faith be supported apart from the Book of Mormon? Can the apostasy be strongly supported by the Holy Bible with scriptures taken in proper context? The proper context is the entire Bible, or at least the entire book of Amos.

The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too.

I'll answer these questions shortly.

[Sola'lor]

Here's some biblical scriptures in support of the apostacy. Now what we mean by apostacy is not the Christianity would leave the earth. We believe that apostacy is when some one turns away from gospel. For example if the catholic church is the church that decended directly from the church that Christ established then they are in apostacy. This is because they have turned away from the doctrines and organization that Christ establish. Another part of apostacy is that the Apostles hold the keys to the priesthood. When they were killed there was no one left holding the keys to the priesthood and thus the priesthood could not be used by church leadeers after that.

Here's some scriptures.

Isaiah 24:5
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Acts 20: 28-30
28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

2 Timothy 4:3, 4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The verses from Amos 8 also make support this. Those are some that were listed as references on LDs.org. This one wasn't listed in the references but it's a good one too.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[Sola'lor]

Here's some Biblical scriptures that support the Restoration of the Gospel:

Isaiah 2:1-3
1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 19:13,14
13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

Acts 3:19-21
19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Revelation 14:6-7
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

[Fish-Hunter]

Thanks so much for starting the thread and posting the scirpture references. I will try to get to it when time allows. I will be able to find it under "My Replies". In the mean time, could you please share your LDS testimony? Did you convert to the Mormon Faith from a Christian household? Do you live in Utah? What convinced you that the Mormon Faith is the true restoration of the apparent apostate historical Christian church? It seems 188 years is quite a short period of time to nullify the work of God of the previous 1,812 years of New Testament history? If God is sovereign, why do you think the church was aspostate for over 1,800 years? Was God unable or too weak and anemic to keep His promise to the bride of Christ that the Savior purchased by His own blood? Remember, the proper context of a biblical passage is the entire Scriptures of 66 books.

I would like to read your answers before we attempt to explore Holy Scripture together. I found Katzpur's background to be very helpful in my understanding where she was comming from. Katzpur, as you know, was born into a generational Mormon household, and lives in Salt Lake City. We all have presuppositions, but are our presuppositions true? Are we comming to a religious debate with blinders on? Maybe we should take off our blinders before we start too.

[kai]

what exactly were the doctrines and organisation that christ established?

[Sola'lor]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Thanks so much for starting the thread and posting the scirpture references. I will try to get to it when time allows. I will be able to find it under "My Replies".

No Problem.

If the mean time, could you please share your LDS testimony?

My testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints comes from all the experiences I've had in this life. Through my experiences and prayers I know that the Book of Mormon is a true book of scripture. It is definatly inspired of God. I have learned so many things from it and many of itg's teachings have helped me through certain times in my life. I know that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. The work brought about through Him has not only helped me but has helped millions of people around the world. Many of those people are not part of the church. I have recieved so many blessings from this Church and it has helped me greatly improve myself. But more importantly than all that I know that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all mankind. He is the only begotten Son of God and only through Him can we return to our Heavenly Father.

Did you convert to the Mormon Faith from a Christian household?

Well first I consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be a Christian church. But My parents were both members of this church and I was baptized at eight years old. Some people call this being 'born of the covenant.' but I still consider myself a convert. This conversion proccess started when I was eight years old and continues to the present day with each new thing I learn or with each improvement I can make in my obedience to God's commandments.

Do you live in Utah?

I was born in Utah and lived there for about one month before my parents moved to Idaho. I've lived in Idaho for all of my life except for two years of my mission I spent in the Philippines.

What convinced you that the Mormon Faith is the true restoration of the apparent apostasy of historical Christian church?

Well there wasn't one specific moment. Rather it has been a lifelong period of study, learning, and questioning. I've had many experiences that have shown to my satisfaction that the church is true.

[Fish-Hunter]

Thanks again for the additional information. Therefore, you are a generational Mormon born into a Mormon household of faith. How far back does your geneology go back to the Mormon Church? Does your family tree have any relations to some of the founders or leaders of the Mormon Church? Would you consider Idaho a Mormon friendly state since it is adjacent to Utah, being very close to Salt Lake City (LDS Vatican)? How long ago was your Mormon missionary trip to the Philipines? Did you minister in Manila, and did you learn first hand about the stronghold bondage of Roman Catholicism in a predominate Roman Catholic country? Did you find any similarities between Roman Catholicism and Mormonism such as apostolic succession and additional extra-biblical revelation?

[Fish-Hunter]

Quote:
Originally Posted by idea
Matt 16:
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of chell shall not dprevail against it.

flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee - the church is founded upon revelations and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I rely on the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 11: 3 … no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

In any event...

Apostasy of the Early Christian Church
Isa. 24:5 changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant
Isa. 29:13 this people draw near me with their mouth
Isa. 60:2 darkness shall cover the earth
Amos 8:11 a famine ... of hearing the words of the Lord
Matt. 13:25 his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat
Matt. 24:5 saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many
Matt. 24:24 shall arise false Christs, and false prophets
John 6:66 his disciples went back, and walked no more with him
Acts 20:29 shall grievous wolves enter in among you
1 Cor. 11:18 there be divisions among you
Gal. 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him
Gal. 3:1 who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey
2 Thes. 2:3 shall not come, except there come a falling away first
1 Tim. 1:6 some having swerved have turned aside
1 Tim. 4:1 giving heed to seducing spirits
2 Tim. 1:15 all they which are in Asia be turned away from me
2 Tim. 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred
2 Tim. 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
2 Tim. 4:4 turn away their ears from the truth ... unto fables
Titus 1:16 profess that they know God, but in works they deny him
James 4:1 From whence came wars and fightings among you
2 Pet. 2:1 false prophets also among the people
2 Pet. 3:17 being led away with the error of the wicked
1 Jn. 2:18 now are there many antichrists
1 Jn. 4:1 many false prophets are gone out into the world
Jude 1:4 certain men crept in ... denying the only Lord God
Rev. 2:2 which say they are apostles, and are not
Rev. 3:16 thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot
Rev. 13:7 to make war with the saints
1 Ne. 13:26 foundation of a great and abominable church
2 Ne. 26:20 the Gentiles ... have stumbled
2 Ne. 27:1 Gentiles ... will be drunken with iniquity
Morm. 8:33 transfigured the holy word of God
D&C 1:15 strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant
D&C 86:3 Satan ... soweth the tares
D&C 112:23 darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people
JS-H 1:19 they were all wrong, ... their hearts are far from me
See also Matt. 24:11; Rom. 11:21; 1 Cor. 1:11; 3:3; Col. 2:22; 1 Tim. 1:19; Titus 1:10; 2 Pet. 2:22; 3 Jn. 1:9; Rev. 2:5; 1 Ne. 11:34.
you can ignore those last couple of refs if you like

Back on topic - free will -
2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

or if you prefer:
NT Gal 5:1 STAND fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.