LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Thank you Orontes for your postings. I have clicked on your link of HERE and have not seen it before. I apologize for glossing over some of your work. I want to spend time on your link and go from there, okay? Therefore, it seems we should stay within the gospel proclamation found in the 13 Epistles of Paul (50% of the New Testament). Please allow me time to digest what you are sharing. Thanks again for all of your hard work on this thread. It deserves to be read and responded to. For the sake of time management, I will try to limit an actual discussion with Orontes as the LDS representative of the Mormon Faith. May God be glorified in our actual discussion. Could we try to reduce the debate terminology and tactics, and find the truth together? The subject of the gospel should be discussed in great reverence and fear of the most High God. - Fish-Hunter

It's odd you didn't see the post before. It is an extended post (takes up a fair amount of space) and I have linked to it twice in our exchanges. Take any time you need to think on the passage.

I'm not sure what you mean by debate terminology and tactics. My posts have been straight forward. I do expect a base level of reason. Reason is not a tactic of debate, but basic to sober discourse.

I think your wanting to show reverence for the text is nice. I have no problem with the idea. However, one doesn't want to confuse a difference of interpretation with a lack of reverence. A Roman Catholic is not less revere simply because they believe in Papal Infallibility. An Eastern Orthodox is nor less revere because they recognize all Seven Ecumenical Councils. A Mormon is not less revere because they recognize a restoration of the prophetic mantle. The basic issue is in any inter-faith dialogue, one must avoid the penchant to demonize the opposition (meaning ascribe a lesser moral standing or dark design to one's interlocutor). Moreover, one cannot presume their understanding is the measure used by all. This is why rationality is so important. It provides a symmetry and transparency to ideas over and above theological loyalty. This is something to consider when one starts using parsing language like "human logic". If a subject begins to couch the opposing view as simply "human logic" then that subject runs of the real risk of succumbing to a dogmatism (that is a loyalty to position over and above any rational critique) which is a type of mental and positional atrophy.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

It's odd you didn't see the post before. It is an extended post (takes up a fair amount of space) and I have linked to it twice in our exchanges. Take any time you need to think on the passage.

I'm not sure what you mean by debate terminology and tactics. My posts have been straight forward. I do expect a base level of reason. Reason is not a tactic of debate, but basic to sober discourse.

I think your wanting to show reverence for the text is nice. I have no problem with the idea. However, one doesn't want to confuse a difference of interpretation with a lack of reverence. A Roman Catholic is not less revere simply because they believe in Papal Infallibility. An Eastern Orthodox is nor less revere because they recognize all Seven Ecumenical Councils. A Mormon is not less revere because they recognize a restoration of the prophetic mantle. The basic issue is in any inter-faith dialogue, one must avoid the penchant to demonize the opposition (meaning ascribe a lesser moral standing or dark design to one's interlocutor). Moreover, one cannot presume their understanding is the measure used by all. This is why rationality is so important. It provides a symmetry and transparency to ideas over and above theological loyalty. This is something to consider when one starts using parsing language like "human logic". If a subject begins to couch the opposing view as simply "human logic" then that subject runs of the real risk of succumbing to a dogmatism (that is a loyalty to position over and above any rational critique) which is a type of mental and positional atrophy.

There is a difference in our presuppositions. I believe all fallen human beings are completely dependent upon the new birth and the person and work of the Holy Spirit to illuminate Biblical truth. Therefore, I see human wisdom, human logic, and rational thinking in the flesh as being in enmity with the wisdom of God. I did post scriptures above to support my understanding. Thanks for your continual patience. If you need to study my position whle waiting for my response, please go to monergism.com. When God grants a new birth to a sinner, he will use the intelligence of the regenerate man to expound his truth. Check out the writings of Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin...both to be considered extremely intelligent men.

Monergism :: Search Results Edwards

Monergism :: Search Results Calvin

I really need to work for the rest of the day. Thereafter, I will be watching the Los Angeles Lakers. I assume you were routing for the Utah Jazz a few days ago. I will be responding to your link of here in due time.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I assume you were routing for the Utah Jazz a few days ago. I will be responding to your link of here in due time.

Not that this has anything whatsoever to do with the thread, but why would you think Orantes would root for the Jazz if he lives in Southern California? I'd be really surprised if that were the case.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Not that this has anything whatsoever to do with the thread, but why would you think Orantes would root for the Jazz if he lives in Southern California? I'd be really surprised if that were the case.

I'm just trying to reduce the tension. I've been a LA Laker fan my entire life and I do not live in California. Hey Orontes, are you a LA Laker fan, Utah Jazz fan, or do watch basketball at all? Did you know that Derrick Fisher is a Christian? It seems the Utah Jazz fans should have treated him just a little bit nicer, don't you think? I have always wondered, is the long time head coach of the Utah Jazz an LDS Christian? Do you know of any professional basketaball player who is a LDS Christian?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Did you know that Derrick Fisher is a Christian? It seems the Utah Jazz fans should have treated him just a little bit nicer, don't you think?

I didn't know. I would be pretty surprised really if several of his teammates were not also Christians. I'm confused, though, do you believe we should treat Christian athletes differently from non-Christian athletes?

I have always wondered, is the long time head coach of the Utah Jazz an LDS Christian?

No, Jerry Sloan is not LDS, nor is he a native Utahn. I don't know his religious affiliation. The Jazz are owned by a Latter-day Saint, but none of the players are LDS.

Do you know of any professional basketaball player who is a LDS Christian?

Thurl Bailey, who played for the Jazz a number of years back, converted to the Church during that period of time.









The others are too numerous to mention. See Famous Mormons in Sports.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I didn't know. I would be pretty surprised really if several of his teammates were not also Christians. I'm confused, though, do you believe we should treat Christian athletes differently from non-Christian athletes?

No, Jerry Sloan is not LDS, nor is he a native Utahn. I don't know his religious affiliation. The Jazz are owned by a Latter-day Saint, but none of the players are LDS.

Thurl Bailey, who played for the Jazz a number of years back, converted to the Church during that period of time.
The others are too numerous to mention. See Famous Mormons in Sports.

Thanks for sharing! I know Steve Young is an LDS Christian. Isn't he related to Brigham Young too? Should we treat Christian athletes differently than non-Christian athletes? No, but I believe Christian athletes should bear witness to Christ on their teams and in public. When my kids were young, I used to subscribe to an all Christian Pro Athlete magazine for them. I still plan to answer Orontes in detail when time allows.

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

There is a difference in our presuppositions. I believe all fallen human beings are completely dependent upon the new birth and the person and work of the Holy Spirit to illuminate Biblical truth. Therefore, I see human wisdom, human logic, and rational thinking in the flesh as being in enmity with the wisdom of God. I did post scriptures above to support my understanding. Thanks for your continual patience. If you need to study my position whle waiting for my response, please go to monergism.com. When God grants a new birth to a sinner, he will use the intelligence of the regenerate man to expound his truth. Check out the writings of Jonathan Edwards and John Calvin...both to be considered extremely intelligent men.

Monergism :: Search Results Edwards

Monergism :: Search Results Calvin

I really need to work for the rest of the day. Thereafter, I will be watching the Los Angeles Lakers. I assume you were routing for the Utah Jazz a few days ago. I will be responding to your link of here in due time.

Most Christians, including Mormons, believe in being born again and the Holy Ghost is fundamental to grounding Mormon claims. This is why personal revelation is the core operative of Mormon epistemology. However, Mormons do not believe only fellow Mormons can feel the power of the Holy Ghost. Quite the contrary, it is through feeling the Spirit and responding to it that one can be brought to the true. Any other rubric creates an us-them dynamic with no ability to explain how one moves from one to the other outside of Divine fiat.* Further, Mormons, in rejecting the absurdity of Original Sin, believe all men can espouse on the good as all men are moral beings. Thus, truth and the good can be found among the various beliefs of the world over and through time. Finally, Mormonism is not anti-rational. It is neither intimidated by reason nor feels any need to qualify rationality as "human logic" etc. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive.

I am quite familiar with both Calvin and Edwards. I consider both fundamentally wrong on multiple points and testaments to imagination trumping substance.

As a Californian (and a Southern Cali man to boot) I am a Lakers man! Memphis' foolishness in giving up Gasol is the Lakers gain. I don't understand your comment about Fisher since some 80% of the U.S. population identify as Christian.



*Which outside of any universalist salvation (which would negate the us-them division in the first place) of course, turns Deity into an evil being.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

Most Christians, including Mormons, believe in being born again and the Holy Ghost is fundamental to grounding Mormon claims. This is why personal revelation is the core operative of Mormon epistemology. However, Mormons do not believe only fellow Mormons can feel the power of the Holy Ghost. Quite the contrary, it is through feeling the Spirit and responding to it that one can be brought to the true. Any other rubric creates an us-them dynamic with no ability to explain how one moves from one to the other outside of Divine fiat.* Further, Mormons, in rejecting the absurdity of Original Sin, believe all men can espouse on the good as all men are moral beings. Thus, truth and the good can be found among the various beliefs of the world over and through time. Finally, Mormonism is not anti-rational. It is neither intimidated by reason nor feels any need to qualify rationality as "human logic" etc. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive.

I am quite familiar with both Calvin and Edwards. I consider both fundamentally wrong on multiple points and testaments to imagination trumping substance.

As a Californian (and a Southern Cali man to boot) I am a Lakers man! Memphis' foolishness in giving up Gasol is the Lakers gain. I don't understand your comment about Fisher since some 80% of the U.S. population identify as Christian.



*Which outside of any universalist salvation (which would negate the us-them division in the first place) of course, turns Deity into an evil being.

Great to know that we are for the same team. I was born and raised in southern CA. I watched the Lakers from the Jerry West, Chamberlin, Baylor days to the present. Wouldn't it be great to watch the Lakers and the Celtics in the finals. I never liked those old Celtics who would beat the Lakers.

I'm glad you are well read in regards to Calvin, Edwards and historical Christianity understood within the Reformed solas. We should have a great discussion. I would like to spend time discussing Christianity and the gospel of God's grace with you in particular. I think I get side track trying to deal with everyone, without really hearing what anyone has to share. I will try to get to your post after the game, or Thursday morning. I promise I will take your posting seriously and try to understand your point of view before responding. - Fish-Hunter