LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

Hmmm, there are still posts 824, 825, and 826 you have not addressed. There is also post 835 outstanding (which you specifically asked I post on) and post 836 that you quote but don't engage. This is the same thing you did with post 827. I expect you either refute the arguments in those posts, concede you have no counter or admit they are correct. The noted posts do not even count the earlier posts regarding your category mistake etc. that you have not dealt with. It isn't kosher to simply ignore posts and points that undercut your position. I noted in an earlier comment to another, you considered name calling childish. I understand. By that same token, not dealing with posts that directly frustrate your own stance is disingenuous. So, the arguments in those posts await. Either present counters, admit you cannot refute the arguments or concede to the points made.

I thought you wanted to discuss and debate the sovereignty of God in light of Scripture? I think much of your postings go way beyond the intent of this thread. Remember, your LDS brother created this thread with certain restrains and parameters. I'm not interested in debating theories, personal perspectives, human logic and human wisdom. I would like to discuss biblical exegetical issues. What does God reveal in the Holy Bible on certain topics? Do official LDS doctrines hold up in the light of Scripture alone? What is the LDS view of the sovereignty of God? How does that view compare with the Bible? That is the intent of this thread. Please try to stay within that context, or please create a new thread to discuss other issues. Here's the opening post again:

Sola'lor
LDS beliefs and the Bible

This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter
**Thanks for correcting my error and I welcome it! I'm not sure if that one verse is even close to imply that there would be a wholesale apostasy of the Christian church. What happened to Joseph Smith's translation of the Christian Bible...not good enough for the LDS Church to use? Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible. I would love to read in context whatever Bible verses you can come up with. Does the Christian Bible ever point to the restoration movement of the LDS Church and a prophet of Joseph Smith? The other sheep is the Gentiles. If you wish to discuss, maybe you could start another thread and I would love to particpate. But before you start, can the Mormon Faith be supported apart from the Book of Mormon? Can the apostasy be strongly supported by the Holy Bible with scriptures taken in proper context? The proper context is the entire Bible, or at least the entire book of Amos.

The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too.

I'll answer these questions shortly.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I thought you wanted to discuss and debate the sovereignity of God in light of Scripture? I think much of your posting goes beyond the intent of this thread. Remember, your LDS brother created this thread with certain restrains and parimeters.

Weird! 'Cause that's not what he said in his OP. He said, "This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread. The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too." What were the restrains and parameters you believe he created?

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Weird! 'Cause that's not what he said in his OP. He said, "This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread. The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too." What were the restrains and parameters you believe he created?

Please look at the title of this thread: LDS beliefs and the Bible . I think the best understanding of the intent of this thread would be between Sola'lor and me. I thought I understood what Sola'lor wanted to debate. Anyways, this has become a very interesting thread.

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I thought you wanted to discuss and debate the sovereignty of God in light of Scripture? I think much of your postings go way beyond the intent of this thread. Remember, your LDS brother created this thread with certain restrains and parameters. I'm not interested in debating theories, personal perspectives, human logic and human wisdom. I would like to discuss biblical exegetical issues. What does God reveal in the Holy Bible on certain topics? Do official LDS doctrines hold up in the light of Scripture alone? What is the LDS view of the sovereignty of God? How does that view compare with the Bible? That is the intent of this thread. Please try to stay within that context, or please create a new thread to discuss other issues. Here's the opening post again:

As previously stated, I have never shown any penchant on discussing particular subject matter. I did state I expected a degree of rigor. So far, you have not obliged. More to the point, everything I have posted on, is directly tied to subject matter traceable to yourself. You cannot plead some breech of thread integrity when your comments are all I'm responding to. Finally, the thread explicitly states (as was pointed out by Katzpur): "The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too." Nothing I've posted on moves beyond that base parameter.

Note: applying the adjective "human" to logic and wisdom is odd. Insofar as you, I and others participating in the thread are human, there is no other recourse. Further, if you are interested in exegesis then that standard is to reason. Reason means logic. The only other option is if you admit your understanding of things is not rational. If that is the case, then we have no grounds to discuss anything. If you believe your stance is rational then my multiple posts await your response. So, either give a retort to my arguments, admit failure, or admit you simply don't know. Running from clear challenges to your views is not acceptable.

Here is the post noting all awaiting you again:

Originally Posted by Orontes

Hmmm, there are still posts 824, 825, and 826 you have not addressed. There is also post 835 outstanding (which you specifically asked I post on) and post 836 that you quote but don't engage. This is the same thing you did with post 827. I expect you either refute the arguments in those posts, concede you have no counter or admit they are correct. The noted posts do not even count the earlier posts regarding your category mistake etc. that you have not dealt with. It isn't kosher to simply ignore posts and points that undercut your position. I noted in an earlier comment to another, you considered name calling childish. I understand. By that same token, not dealing with posts that directly frustrate your own stance is disingenuous. So, the arguments in those posts await. Either present counters, admit you cannot refute the arguments or concede to the points made.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

As previously stated, I have never shown any penchant on discussing particular subject matter. I did state I expected a degree of rigor. So far, you have not obliged. More to the point, everything I have posted on, is directly tied to subject matter traceable to yourself. You cannot plead some breech of thread integrity when your comments are all I'm responding to. Finally, the thread explicitly states (as was pointed out by Katzpur): "The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too." Nothing I've posted on moves beyond that base parameter.

Note: applying the adjective "human" to logic and wisdom is odd. Insofar as you, I and others participating in the thread are human, there is no other recourse. Further, if you are interested in exegesis then that standard is to reason. Reason means logic. The only other option is if you admit your understanding of things is not rational. If that is the case, then we have no grounds to discuss anything. If you believe your stance is rational then my multiple posts await your response. So, either give a retort to my arguments, admit failure, or admit you simply don't know. Running from clear challenges to your views is not acceptable.

Here is the post noting all awaiting you again:

Hey Orontes,

I guess we have a very hard time communicating with each other. I have found several other LDS members who are able to communicate in an open and more honest way. I find you to be very philosophical in your postings, extremely defensive, overly sensitive, and not very biblical. Of course, that's only my personal opinion. You seem to flood your postings with too many issues to honestly discuss in the light of scripture. After-all, we are talking about the Word of God with the author being of infinite intelligence, requiring the Holy Spirit to illuminate biblical truth on any particular issue. If you want to discuss the sovereignty of God in salvation, and other topics in light of scripture in comparison with Mormon doctrine, that's fine. If you don't want to, that's fine too. The door is always open on my end, if there is a mutual respect from both our ends. I do apologize if it appears that I have not shared with gentleness and respect from your perspective. I try not to take things so personal, because God's truth is objective regardless what others might believe or not. God does not need me to contend for The Faith, because God is completely sovereign in all things. Does God allow me to contend for The Faith as a great privilege and personal joy? My answer is yes. So, the ball is in your court. I'm okay either way.

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Hey Orontes,

I guess we have a very hard time communicating with each other. I have found several other LDS members who are able to communicate in an open and more honest way. I find you to be very philosophical in your postings, extremely defensive, overly sensitive, and not very biblical. Of course, that's only my personal opinion. You seem to flood your postings with too many issues to honestly discuss in the light of scripture. After-all, we are talking about the Word of God with the author being of infinite intelligence, requiring the Holy Spirit to illuminate biblical truth on any particular issue. If you want to discuss the sovereignty of God in salvation, and other topics in light of scripture in comparison with Mormon doctrine, that's fine. If you don't want to, that's fine too. The door is always open on my end, if there is a mutual respect from both our ends. I do apologize if it appears that I have not shared with gentleness and respect from your perspective. I personally try not to take things so personal, because God's truth is objective regardless what others might believe or not. God does not need me to contend for The Faith, because God is completely sovereign in all things. Does God allow me to contend for The Faith as a great privilege and personal joy? My answer is yes. So, the ball is in your court. I'm okay either way.

Aside from the personal commentary on myself, the above doesn't actually address the issues. It in fact avoids them. If you believe you understand the Bible you should be able to respond to my posts. If you do not understand the Bible then I would expect the avoidance thus far demonstrated. If you feel my posts "flood" with too many issues, that is a natural build up from your failure to address anything uncomfortable to your view. However, I am happy to compromise. You asked me to give an explication on Paul's writings. I did so with the tail end of Romans 7 and beginning of 8: Here. So, there is one issue for you. Since you are making claims about knowing the Bible. You should be able to give rebuttal. If not, then cede the point or admit you do not know. No running away. It is a simple number of choices concerning one issue. A basic integrity for your self and those you have chosen to engage requires more than the simple presumption of knowledge. Demonstrate what you claim to know or be condemned for your pretense.

[silvermoon383]

Orontes isn't being philosophical (and it's not a dirty word), he's using the rules and laws of logic, which everyone must use in a debate such as this. Logic is the "science" of argument. Just ask Mr. Spock.

[DeepShadow]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I have found several other LDS members who are able to communicate in an open and more honest way.

And you promptly ignored them.

I find you to be very philosophical in your postings, extremely defensive, overly sensitive, and not very biblical.

Apart from the fact that "philosophical" is not a bad thing--Paul was trained in rhetoric, and used it to glorify God--Orontes defended you when others called you a troll, and specifically said he didn't think you were attacking our faith. In what way is that defensive or sensitive? Orontes has, in fact, patiently repeated his request that YOU respond to his posts in proper form.

That's hardly an unreasonable request in a debate forum; things are supposed to go back and forth, like a tennis match. In your world, you serve, Orontes hits it back, and you ignore his hit and serve again.

Of course, that's only my personal opinion. You seem to flood your postings with too many issues to honestly discuss in the light of scripture.

My daughter makes the same complaint, that she can't clean her room because it's too messy. You could have stopped this "flood" when it was a trickle, but now you have all these returned tennis balls at your feet, and you are complaining that it's too hard to address them all.

The door is always open on my end, if there is a mutual respect from both our ends.

ROTFLMHO!!

I do apologize if it appears that I have not shared with gentleness and respect from your perspective. I personally try not to take things so personal, because God's truth is objective regardless what others might believe or not.

But that's not what's at stake here. The question is, could your interpretation of God's word fall short of His actual intent? Is your understanding perfect, and if not, could Orontes be able to teach you anything?

You might rightly complain that I'm making personal connections rather than discussing the issue at hand. Guilty as charged; I have lost all confidence that you would respond to anything I would say. Rather than be ignored as Orontes has been ignored--and thereby add to your "flood"--I choose to play the role of an MST robot, making meta-comments for the sake of the audience.

Because, as you said, some people might be reading this thread for entertainment.