LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.
A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.*


If you wish to abandon your previous postion with all its logical problems and discuss free will in the Bible that is fine. Free will in the Bible is easy to demonstrate.



*This determinism, as previously explained in this very thread, undercuts your own actions: as your attempts to sway others to your view is acting against the will of God who must have set all in the place they are.

I believe in the God revealed in the Scriptures alone. That is why I can receive that God is completely sovereign. You believe in a God that is taught to you by your religious organization with much extra-biblical revelation. Anybody can create a different God once you leave the Bible as final authority from God.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

You have threaten 3 times to leave this thread, but you keep returning. By the number of views and postings, God appears to have a different agenda than you.

If that isn't the most egotistical thing I have ever heard! You poor soul. I think you actually believe that.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I believe in the God revealed in the Scriptures alone. That is why I can receive that God is completely sovereign. You believe in a God that is taught to you by your religious organization with much extra-biblical revelation. Anybody can create a different God once you leave the Bible as final authority from God.

Funny, though, how you can't provide one single solitary piece of evidence that the Bible was ever intended to be the final authority. It's a book, man! God is the final authority and yet you've chosen to tell him to shut up because you're not interested in anything He has had to say for nearly 2000 years. How sovereign is a God who has lost interest in communicating to His children. How loving is a God who would say, "The answers are the book. Read it and don't bother me!" I'll take my God over yours any day.

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Orontes

Quite right. This is why innovations i.e. Evangelicalism cannot be accepted. Any faith that appeals solely to a thing (The Bible) instead of the source of that thing (Deity) will not have the wherewithal to rise above base assertion.

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

The Scirptures (Holy Bible) is the living Word of God. The almighty living God speaks to His children through the Scriptures illuminated by the Spirit for understanding and insight. In addition, God conceals His biblical truths to others. The Word of God is concealed to some and revealed to others. You sure have a very low view of the Word of God...calling it a "thing".

Luke 10:21:
At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.


10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
15For this people's heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'[a] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. - Mat 13

Your post doesn't respond to my own save for your apparent umbrage at my noting the Bible is a thing. Thing refers to the most general category of noun. The Bible is a noun. Thus, the Bible is a thing. You and I are also nouns and thus, you and I are also things. The point remains, faith in a thing, product, text, object etc. over its source (already noted as Deity) means such a faith cannot rise above base assertion. You are a simple illustration.

As to what you do refer to: believing the Divine speaks through the scriptures is fine. I believe that same. If you believe Deity is confined to only speaking through the scriptures then you have a claim that is both empty and logically problematic. It is empty since there is nothing to indicate such is the case (in the Bible or anywhere else). It is logically problematic because you, as a self professed Bible only man, have opted for an extra-biblical stance. You are a victim of your own rhetoric.

Note: if you accept esoterism in Christian Thought by the two references to Luke 10 and Mathew 13 then you must reject orthodox Christianity in general (which went against such ideas from the time of Irenaeus) and Protestantism in particular which rejected any thought of hierarchy or the hidden with the general claim: all Christians are priests and ordained simply by the Christian moniker. You also have the practical issue of Protestant understandings of the Bible being legion, as noted by the literally thousands of churches (and millions of individuals) with mutually exclusive views.

Note II: you have not replied to your category mistake I therefore assume that you admit the total failure of your Pauline Epistles project.

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Orontes

A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.
A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.*


If you wish to abandon your previous postion with all its logical problems and discuss free will in the Bible that is fine. Free will in the Bible is easy to demonstrate.



*This determinism, as previously explained in this very thread, undercuts your own actions: as your attempts to sway others to your view is acting against the will of God who must have set all in the place they are.

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I believe in the God revealed in the Scriptures alone. That is why I can receive that God is completely sovereign. You believe in a God that is taught to you by your religious organization with much extra-biblical revelation. Anybody can create a different God once you leave the Bible as final authority from God.

You did not respond to the absurdities of your position. To note them again:

A) A god that can save all but does not, is an evil god.

B) A god that controls all is thereby responsible for all. If that all includes evil then such is an evil god.

It's fine that you believe in the God of the scriptures. Unfortunately, you do not appear to understand the God of the scriptures you believe in as your God, based on the conclusions you've drawn, is an evil being.

If you wish to flush out "completely sovereign" in terms other than the determinism you've heretofore opted for that is fine. Otherwise, one is simply left with the evil being of your stance and your assertions about an extra biblical God. Aside from the logical problems of your belief, another interesting issue might be "why believe in such a being?" There are plenty of other Christian denominations that don't fall prey to Calvin's poor reading of scripture, so why opt for a position so obviously flawed?

As to my own view of Deity: it is based on experience of Deity, not an organization, dogma or devotion to a text alone.

[madhatter85]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

I believe in the God revealed in the Scriptures alone. That is why I can receive that God is completely sovereign. You believe in a God that is taught to you by your religious organization with much extra-biblical revelation. Anybody can create a different God once you leave the Bible as final authority from God.

problem, you don't read the bible well enough... clearly

God did not give authority to the Bible rather at the end of mattew.
Matthew 28:

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

the power is given to christ only.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by madhatter85

problem, you don't read the bible well enough... clearly

God did not give authority to the Bible rather at the end of mattew.
Matthew 28:


the power is given to christ only.

To all of my LDS friends, this is a major issue. Do you understand what happened in Genesis 3? Do you understand how Satan tried to tempt Jesus and how Jesus responded to the deceiver?

Please click the link: Book of Mormon a copycat of the Holy Bible?

Genesis 3 - The Fall of Man

Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Matthew 4 - The Temptation of Jesus

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'"

John 8 - (I am not applying this verse to anybody, but illustrating that Satan is the father of lies)

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."