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#501
05-06-2008, 08:43 AM
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Your question shows that you know very little about our doctrine. 
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#502
05-06-2008, 09:20 AM
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For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. - Ephesians 2:8-9 - The Apostle Paul from the Holy Bible Romans 3 God's Faithfulness 1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? 4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge." 5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Righteousness Through Faith 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. Romans 4 Abraham Justified by Faith What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. 18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. Gal 2 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d] Galatians 3 Faith or Observance of the Law 6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[e] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[f] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. 10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[g] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[h] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[i] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[j] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 05-06-2008 at 11:41 AM..
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#503
05-06-2008, 10:36 AM
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Fish-Hunter,
I've read several of your posts and engaged you on several topics. In each instance you have failed to reply once a difficulty with your position was made clear. Others have noted this same penchant. Despite this, you continue to post, often citing verse that seems to have little to do with any larger point. My question: do you have a specific issue you wish to discuss?
__________________
"We are lovers of beauty without extravagance and of learning without loss of vigor." -Thucydides
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#504
05-06-2008, 11:45 AM
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2 Corinthians 4 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness,"made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.  Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 05-06-2008 at 11:49 AM..
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#505
05-06-2008, 12:10 PM
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#506
05-06-2008, 12:25 PM
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Well, there are about 25 Mormon Christians debating about 2 historical biblical Christians. I think we all agree that we believe in mutually exclusive Gods, and two mutually exclusive Jesus Christs. Please see Katzpur's posting confirming that we believe in different Christs, different gods, and different gospels. Now, that's progress on this thread to come to this conclusion. We both can be wrong, but we both cannot be right at the same time. Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 05-06-2008 at 12:30 PM..
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#507
05-06-2008, 12:28 PM
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And u don't want to debate FFH, he will tear your theories apart. lol you ahve yet to address my questions and the points i made where you constantly contradict yourself.
__________________
The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten...nations and to bring...understanding to individuals
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#508
05-06-2008, 12:30 PM
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Fish
Post 212 http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...6-post212.html answer my questions please. thanks
__________________
The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten...nations and to bring...understanding to individuals
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#509
05-06-2008, 12:33 PM
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you believe in the same Jesus christ we do. you just think of him differently. 
__________________
The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten...nations and to bring...understanding to individuals
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#510
05-06-2008, 12:41 PM
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We believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe His words and the words of His Prophets and Apostles, as recorded in the New Testament. We believe everything the Bible has to say about Jesus Christ and about our Father in Heaven. We do not accept the extra-biblical 4th and 5th century Creeds or any of the statements of faith written at the time of the Protestant Reforation or later. It is the doctrines of these creeds and statements of faith we take issue with, not the Bible. If we believe in a different God, Christ, and gospel than traditional Christians do, it is because they have departed from the gospel as taught by our Savior. It's because their beliefs, not ours, cannot be reconciled to those taught in the Bible. Was that clear enough for you, Fish-Hunter?
__________________
"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." ~Rudyard Kipling ~
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