LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Orontes

Hello,

If the following is the issue on the table: "Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible." then there is an error at least as it has to do with Mormon positioning. The Apostasy, like Christianity itself, predates the compilation of the Bible. The Bible is a product of the latter 4th Century. I know of no Mormons that hold that original Christianity survived into the late 4th Century.

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

If the Mormon Church considers the Holy Bible to be distorted and corrupt, why do you guys still use it? Your Mormon missionaries use the bait and switch tactics of used car salesmen. You use the Holy Bible (bait) to enter an unsuspecting household, and make the switch with the Book of Mormon. The technique is quite effective for those who are unaware of what the Mormon Church really believes.

The above does not address my post. As to the question posed: there is no notion of inerrancy in Mormonism, neither in regards to the Bible, Book of Mormon or any other piece of the canon. The base notion of inerrancy is itself problematic insofar as one admits humanity is flawed and there is a human component to any text. As to charges of bait and switch: such is both uncharitable (and thereby unchristian) and ignorant of Mormon practice/beliefs.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Note to Sola'lor, Orontes, idea, Starfish, DavyCrocket2003, Polaris, and Scott C:

A word to the wise. There are anti-Mormons who are willing to admit to your face that they're out to bash your beliefs. In an odd sort of way, they are to be commended for their honesty. There are other anti-Mormons who hide behind a mask of feigned interest and would like you to believe that they are genuinely trying to come to a better understanding of your beliefs, when in fact they will simply ignore everything you say and carry on as if you hadn't even answered their questions. They're also experts at sidestepping the issues when you turn the tables and start asking them questions. I suspect you all know this as well as I do. In the event that you don't know for sure which kind you're dealing with on this thread, I'm just giving you a heads up. Oh, and one more thing: Unless you're a first-generation convert who was raised agnostic in inner-city Detroit, you have nothing worthwhile to say anyway. If you were born in the Church, you couldn't possibly have made an informed decision about whether or not to accept the tenets of Mormonism.

For example, please read (if you haven't already) post #17 on this thread, in which the following statement was made: Authentic Christianity does not share the affections of Christ with another (Joseph Smith). When you exalt a mere man and a religious institution above the Almighty Triunie God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it's called idol worship.

If Fish Hunter had paid the slightest bit of attention to anything I said in the many, many posts in which I patiently answered dozens of questions about LDS history and doctrine, he would not be making such an outlandish and knowingly false statement now. Since when did bearing false witness become the hallmark of an "authentic Christian" anyway?


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE:

Hi Katzpur,

I'm not anti-Mormon. I just love the God revealed in the Scriptures alone. It's funny you guys say that I am bashing Mormons. But the basis of your religion is calling Christians that Christ redeemed in the last 2,000 years to be apostate. That's more than bashing Christians. That's bashing the God revealed in the Bible alone. You guys are actually calling the God revealed in the the Bible alone to be a liar.

2 Corinthians 10:5:
We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Katzpur, you are saying that I have given false witness to the truth. But I say that you unknowingly are given false witness to the truth. Here is false testimony to the living God: Mormon.org

[Fish-Hunter]

You guys are looking for a complete apostasy of the church which Christ purchased with His blood from the 1st century to the 19th century. But God always has a remnant chosen by grace in each and every generation...to the praise of His glorious grace. God is completely sovereign and is always in control of His creation and in all things.

So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. Rom 11

Mat 10

"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

"Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law -
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

I appeal to all LDS Christians who are reading this thread to consider the historical Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone. I especially appeal to those LDS Christians from generational LDS backgrounds. What if the apostasy was not true, and Joseph Smith was not a prophet from God. If that's true, you do not know the God revealed in scripture alone through the historical biblical Christ. If Joseph Smith is a false prophet, then you worship a false Christ and embrace a damnable gospel (Gal 1). The Almighty God has given His testimony about His Son Jesus Christ, and commands us to believe upon Him alone for all things. God wants you to have faith in Christ Jesus alone. To throw away the light of the scriptures over a testimony of a 14 year old boy who is never mentioned in the Holy Bible requires unreasonable faith that goes way beyond the character of Almighty God. If you consider me a troll as Katzpur wrote, I understand. But if you would like to discuss these eternal issues, I am willing to continue. Your faith hinges on the Book of Mormon and can never stand up to the light of the Holy Scriptures...and I think you know that. We are told to trust in the Lord with all of our heart and lean not on our own understanding, and in all our ways to acknowledge Him and He WILL direct our paths. Satan is looking for someone to devour and appears an angle of light. You are welcome to discuss these issues on StudyLight Forums :: Index. Start a thread and I will find you.

[Scott C.]

27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
28 I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.

29 And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true.

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

(Moroni's closing testimony at the end of the Book of Mormon, 421 AD, as translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith by the gift and power of God.)

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Scott C.

27 And I exhort you to remember these things; for the time speedily cometh that ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust?
28 I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies. And behold, they shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the everlasting God; and his word shall hiss forth from generation to generation.

29 And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true.

30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing.

31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled.

32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

34 And now I bid unto all, farewell. I soon go to rest in the paradise of God, until my spirit and body shall again reunite, and I am brought forth triumphant through the air, to meet you before the pleasing bar of the great Jehovah, the Eternal Judge of both quick and dead. Amen.

(Moroni's closing testimony at the end of the Book of Mormon, 421 AD, as translated by the Prophet Joseph Smith by the gift and power of God.)

Don't you see your circular argument based solely on extra-biblical revelation that changes the gospel of grace revealed in the Holy Bible alone? Angel Moroni is an Angel of light that changes the gospel according to the Apostle Paul. The Mormon Faith is a faith based on the testimony of Joseph Smith alone. Jesus Christ is the apex of all prophets; He is prophet, priest, and King of the Highest order...there is none like Him. A generatational LDS Christian created this thread to debate the LDS Faith with scirpture alone. Yet, you quote the Book of Moroni from the Book of Mormon to support your position. Could Angel Moroni be an angel of light from the following verse": -"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light" - 2 cor 11:14.

2 Corinthians 11

Paul and the False Apostles

I hope you will put up with a little of my foolishness; but you are already doing that. I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough....For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Galatians 1

Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead— and all the brothers with me,
To the churches in Galatia:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

No Other Gospel

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Gal 1

Hebrews 1 -The Son Superior to Joseph Smith

In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Col 1 - The Supremacy of Christ

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

Almighty God commands us to trust in His Son Jesus Christ... who is the apex of all prophets. Look for no other because Jesus Christ is the ultimate and complete revelation from God (Hebrews 1).

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Authentic Christianity does not share the affections of Christ with another (Joseph Smith). When you exalt a mere man and a religious institution above the Almighty Triunie God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it's called idol worship.

Katzpur's right Fish-Hunter. When you make a statement like this you prove to all of us your complete lack of understanding of the LDS belief. Further you failed to even address any of my points with any sort of coherency. You say you want to discuss these issues, but to this point you've failed to recognize that discussion is a two-way thing. You can't just plug your ears and keep repeating the same theme over and over. That's not a discussion.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Polaris

Katzpur's right Fish-Hunter. When you make a statement like this you prove to all of us your complete lack of understanding of the LDS belief. Further you failed to even address any of my points with any sort of coherency. You say you want to discuss these issues, but to this point you've failed to recognize that discussion is a two-way thing. You can't just plug your ears and keep repeating the same theme over and over. That's not a discussion.

Who speaks for the Mormon Church with authority? It is the same with Roman Catholics, who speaks authoritatively for Rome? The Roman Catholics have a magestrium consisting of the Pope and bishops in communion with him. I know the LDS Faith has the same concept of Apostolic Succession with prophets. I am using LDS.org as my source of understanding. Does the LDS Church have a catechism with official LDS teaching? I find that members of the Roman Catholic and Mormons churches are not necessarily the best sources to understand what the Catholic or Mormon churches officially believes.

My understanding of Mormonism is coming from: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Polaris, could you please share your LDS testimony? So far,I have only heard the testimonies of generational LDS believers.

[Polaris]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Who speaks for the Mormon Church with authority?

The prophet and apostles speak with the authority given them by God, just as the prophets and apostles of the OT and NT spoke with authority.

I know the LDS Faith has the same concept of Apostolic Succession with prophets.

Yes we believe in apostolic succession through the laying on of hands. Just as a new apostle was called to fill the void of Judas so it is today, when one dies another is called by revelation to take his place among the 12.

Polaris, could you please share your LDS testimony? So far,I have only heard the testimonies of generational LDS believers.

What exactly is yo