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  #131  
Old 04-28-2008, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter View Post
LOL...not really a problem if you believe in Biblical revelation as authoritative revelation. Thanks for debating the issues. Let's see what God reveals in His Holy Word together!
This doesn't resolve the problem. Referencing Biblical revelation is a non sequitur. To re-explain the issue: if one claims God controls everything, and people and their actions are included in the everything by definition, then there is no one that is not where God wills them to be at all times. Any attempt to convert one person away from where they are is impious (and thus an evil act) as it assumes the creature knows better than the Creator and seeks to thwart the Divine will. My friend, you stand condemned by your own positioning.
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  #132  
Old 04-28-2008, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I think I've already answered your questions, Marc. I have just one question for you now: Why do you want to continue a conversation with someone you don't believe to be sane and who has no credibility?
I know you are sane and I know you realized you made a mistake in discrediting the 100% reliability of the bible by saying it was full of contradictions.

I will leave this thread now. have a niceday!
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  #133  
Old 04-28-2008, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uss_bigd View Post
I know you are sane and I know you realized you made a mistake in discrediting the 100% reliability of the bible by saying it was full of contradictions.

I will leave this thread now. have a niceday!
Your words remind me of this website.
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  #134  
Old 04-28-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orontes View Post
This doesn't resolve the problem. Referencing Biblical revelation is a non sequitur. To re-explain the issue: if one claims God controls everything, and people and their actions are included in the everything by definition, then there is no one that is not where God wills them to be at all times. Any attempt to convert one person away from where they are is impious (and thus an evil act) as it assumes the creature knows better than the Creator and seeks to thwart the Divine will. My friend, you stand condemned by your own positioning.
Do you want to learn from the Almighty, good, gracious, amazing, wonderful, sovereign, wise God? In Him there is no darkness at all. By His Word we know that God cannot be tempted by evil, and it is impossible for God to lie. We know God does whatever pleases Him, and nothing in all creation can prevent Him from doing His own good pleasure and will. In His Holy Word, God commands us to trust in Him with all of our hearts, and not to lean on our own understanding. And the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Therefore, we need to trust in God alone as He reveals Himself through His Word...the Bible alone. Until you receive His Holy Bible as the Word of God, authoritative above all other religious books, God will conceal Himself from you for His good pleasure. Jesus is praising His Father for concealing spiritual truths from those who do not consider the Word of God as Holy.
Proverbs 9:10:
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

James 1:5:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Proverbs 3
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

1 John 1:5:
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

James 1:13:
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Hebrews 6:18:
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

Luke 10:21:
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 2:13:
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Isaiah 55
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 04-28-2008 at 08:14 PM..
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  #135  
Old 04-28-2008, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uss_bigd View Post
I know you are sane...
What a relief! You can't imagine what a relief it is to hear you say that. I'm sure you're aware how deeply I value your opinion.

Quote:
and I know you realized you made a mistake in discrediting the 100% reliability of the bible by saying it was full of contradictions.
Well, darn. Two steps forward and one step back. The mistake, Marc, was yours in attempting to put words into my mouth. We Latter-day Saints believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. As scripture, it is "given by inspiration of God, [it] is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, [and] for instruction in righteousness." Nowhere does it claim to be either inerrant or complete. In the future, please don't take it upon yourself to admit on my behalf that I made a mistake. That would be my call, not yours, and it's not one I'm willing to make at this point.
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Last edited by Katzpur; 04-28-2008 at 08:24 PM..
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  #136  
Old 04-28-2008, 08:19 PM
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Whats the matter Fish Hunter, not up to the challenge?
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  #137  
Old 04-28-2008, 08:21 PM
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Job 38

The LORD Speaks

Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said:

"Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without knowledge?

Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.

"Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

"Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,

when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,

when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,

when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt'?

"Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,

that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?

The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.

The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

"Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death ?

Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

"What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?

Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?

Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

"Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,

which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?

What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?

Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,

to water a land where no man lives,
a desert with no one in it,

to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?

Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?

From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens

when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?

"Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades?
Can you loose the cords of Orion?

Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?

Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's dominion over the earth?
"Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?

Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, 'Here we are'?

Who endowed the heart with wisdom
or gave understanding to the mind?

Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens

when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?

"Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions

when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
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  #138  
Old 04-28-2008, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Mestemia View Post
Whats the matter Fish Hunter, not up to the challenge?
I think you have confused me with uss_bigd. Actually some of the Mormons do not want to debate, labeling me as a troll. That's quite convenient, don't you think?

Last edited by Fish-Hunter; 04-28-2008 at 08:28 PM..
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  #139  
Old 04-28-2008, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter View Post
I think you have confused me with uss_bigd. Actually some of the Mormons do not want to debate, labeling me as a troll. That's quite convenient, don't you think?
I am referring to post #124 which is in response to post #122


Actually I quite understand the reason why you have been called a troll in this thread.
It is simple really.
You were trolling.

You were not debating, you were preaching.
Big difference.

But back to the subject at hand...
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  #140  
Old 04-28-2008, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Orontes View Post
This doesn't resolve the problem. Referencing Biblical revelation is a non sequitur. To re-explain the issue: if one claims God controls everything, and people and their actions are included in the everything by definition, then there is no one that is not where God wills them to be at all times. Any attempt to convert one person away from where they are is impious (and thus an evil act) as it assumes the creature knows better than the Creator and seeks to thwart the Divine will. My friend, you stand condemned by your own positioning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter View Post
Do you want to learn from the Almighty, good, gracious, amazing, wonderful, sovereign, wise God? In Him there is no darkness at all. By His Word we know that God cannot be tempted by evil, and it is impossible for God to lie. We know God does whatever pleases Him, and nothing in all creation can prevent Him from doing His own good pleasure and will. In His Holy Word, God commands us to trust in Him with all of our hearts, and not to lean on our own understanding. And the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Therefore, we need to trust in God alone as He reveals Himself through His Word...the Bible alone. Until you receive His Holy Bible as the Word of God, authoritative above all other religious books, God will conceal Himself from you for His good pleasure. Jesus is praising His Father for concealing spiritual truths from those who do not consider the Word of God as Holy.
Proverbs 9:10:
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

James 1:5:
If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him.

Proverbs 3
Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight.

1 John 1:5:
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.

James 1:13:
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;

Hebrews 6:18:
God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged.

Luke 10:21:
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

1 Thessalonians 2:13:
And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

Isaiah 55
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,"
declares the LORD.

As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Nothing you quote supports the notion of a Divine determinism. The assertion "We know God does whatever pleases Him, and nothing in all creation can prevent Him from doing His own good pleasure and will." is in fact contradicted by scripture noting God cannot lie. Further, the point "in Him there is no darkness at all" as a moral posture means Deity cannot control all things as such a determinism makes God responsible for all evil and thus Himself evil. You have assumed a view of Deity that is an innovation. It is unbiblical and irrational.
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