LDS beliefs and the Bible

[*Paul*]

Scripture is God breathed, it is the Word of God, it can be trusted those who are indwelt by the same Spirit that wrote it know that it is from God and do not need any men to tell them so. The truths contained therein about man and God are incomparable to any mans work. The apostles, Jesus and the disciples constantly referred to scripture to prove the truth of their statements, many early church writers also did the same. In other words their reasoning would be – this is true because the scriptures say it here and here, check for your self. I can’t think of anywhere where a tradition or anything else is sought for a decision or to settle any dispute or doctrinal matter.
We are to follow the example of these righteous men, whenever there was a disagreement it was settled by referring to scriptures and this is what we “sola scripturalists” do. So let’s go to the scriptures:

Jesus proves His point by referring to the scriptures:
Mt 21v42: Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Jesus points out the error in not knowing the scriptures:
Mt 22v29: Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

What is written MUST come to pass:
Mk 14v49: I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.

They reveal Jesus:
Lk 24v25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Lk 24v27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

They alone prove who the Christ is:
Acts 17v2-3: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

They are the place we go to check if the things we are being taught are truth:
Acts 17v11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

[*Paul*]

They contain the promises of God:
Rom 1v2: (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

Through which we are partakers of the Divine Nature:
2Pt 1v4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

We learn from them and are comforted by them:
Rom 15v4: For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Even a child may know them:
2Tm 3v15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

They are our confirmation of the gospel:
1Cor 15v3-4: For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Jesus used them to confirm His teaching:
Jn 7v38: He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

They contain the prophecies so that we are not deceived as to who the Christ is:
Jn 7v42: Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
Jn 19v36-37: For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

It cannot be broken:
Jn 10v35: If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Its author is truly the Holy Ghost:
Acts 1v16: Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Scripture is not just Old Testament writings:
2Pt 3v15-16: And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

They are the commandments of the Lord:
1Cor 14v37-38: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

They contain instructions on how we are to behave or not to:
1Cor 6v9-10: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Col 3v12-13: Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

[*Paul*]

They contain our hope for the future:
Isa 11v6-9: The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea
Rv 21v3-4: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Ti 2v13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

It is not to be changed or twisted:
Deut 12v32: What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Prov 30v6: Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Rv 22v18-19: For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
2Pt 3v16: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

God has attached His own integrity to His Word, its truthfulness and preservation:
Ps 138v2: I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Ps 12v6-7: The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Ti 1v2: In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Importantly what was written was written so that we might have life through the name of Jesus:
Jn 20v30-31: And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

We are cleansed thereby:
Eph 5v26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Ps 119v9: Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Ps 119v11: Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Tell me what is lacking for me as a Sola Scripturalist that scripture doesn't contain? What can I learn about God and how to know Him that cannot be found in the Word of God?

I know of Christians who only had the gospel of John whilst hiding underground in China, who were born again through believing the simple gospel therein particularly John3v16. They held on to that wonderful good news and believed it with all their hearts with no Church to tell them to believe it. All they knew about God was contained in scripture and those Words the Spirit used to bring them to life and they were thus by definition Sola Scripturalists. Having believed that good news God came to live in their hearts by His Spirit and they were filled with the love of God and shared the good news with others risking their own lives. What were they lacking?

We simply follow the example of Jesus and the Apostles who turned to scripture time and again. Whatever scriptures were available to them they clearly used.
Show me what practices I do not follow as a result of my sola scriptura doctrine and how they can be traced back to the first church under the apostles.

1Cor 4v15-16: For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me

Ps 119v130: The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Jer 15v16: Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Just as a side note which I nearly forgot scripture is sufficient to make us perfect for every good work:
2Tm 3v16-17: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Note that Paul here is not discussing particular books of the bible but scripture in general if it is scripture is sufficient to perfect and complete you and equip you for every good work, may I ask what more is needed? If there were any other rules of faith here is the place for Paul to mention them.

Mt 22v29: Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God

[Fish-Hunter]

Dear *Paul*,

I read your two postings and was thankful to the Lord for your labor. This particular passage came to mind in thinking about your postings.


1 Thessalonians 2:13:

And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. Orontes, you can never admit that you made a mistake, even when you made it for all to see. The Bible is the Word of God with infinite wisdom and revelation. Therefore, it's okay to admit that we are wrong at times. It seems you don't like the idea of the gospel of God's grace to sinners, do you? It is a completely free and sufficient gift given to the elect of God to the praise of His glorious grace.

This is an odd post. There are two charges: one, I made a mistake and am too proud to admit it and two, I don't like the "gospel of God's grace". To the first charge: did I make a mistake? If so, what is it? This was my post:

The gospel of God's Grace is a Calvinist vernacular. It isn't a term found in the Bible. The basic idea is that man is fallen and reprobate and therefore opposed to all that is good and holy. This is an outgrowth of the concept of Original Sin. The only possible salvation is through a gracious act of Deity where He reaches into the muck and mire and pulls out those elect He has set aside for salvation. The principle stresses that there is nothing on the human side of the equation that could contribute to man's salvation. All glory is to God and God alone. Therefore, there are the reprobate and the elect.

The first sentence notes the gospel of Gods grace as a Calvinist vernacular. Is this incorrect? I then explain the basics of that vernacular. Was I wrong in the explanation? In the second sentence I state it isn't a term found in the Bible. In my next post I stated that Acts 20:24 (that you quote) does use the verbiage (it actually depends on how one deals with the double prepositional clauses, but I think it can translate as you use it*). I then stated if your point was simply that God is gracious, this was fine. If by the gospel of God's grace you simply mean Acts 20:24 I'm happy to accept that. This is what "that is fine" means. Is my saying "that is fine" the indication of my pride and not admitting a mistake?

To charge two: my not liking the gospel of God's grace all depends on what the phrase means. If it means the same as Acts 20:24, then I happily accept it. I believe God as a moral being is gracious. If the gospel of God's grace means what I explained as the Calvinist vernacular, then I reject it as both incoherent and unjust.

*I can explain this further if you like.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

This is an odd post. There are two charges: one, I made a mistake and am too proud to admit it and two, I don't like the "gospel of God's grace". To the first charge: did I make a mistake? If so, what is it? This was my post:

The gospel of God's Grace is a Calvinist vernacular. It isn't a term found in the Bible. The basic idea is that man is fallen and reprobate and therefore opposed to all that is good and holy. This is an outgrowth of the concept of Original Sin. The only possible salvation is through a gracious act of Deity where He reaches into the muck and mire and pulls out those elect He has set aside for salvation. The principle stresses that there is nothing on the human side of the equation that could contribute to man's salvation. All glory is to God and God alone. Therefore, there are the reprobate and the elect.

The first sentence notes the gospel of Gods grace as a Calvinist vernacular. Is this incorrect? I then explain the basics of that vernacular. Was I wrong in the explanation? In the second sentence I state it isn't a term found in the Bible. In my next post I stated that Acts 20:24 (that you quote) does use the verbiage (it actually depends on how one deals with the double prepositional clauses, but I think it can translate as you use it*). I then stated if your point was simply that God is gracious, this was fine. If by the gospel of God's grace you simply mean Acts 20:24 I'm happy to accept that. This is what "that is fine" means. Is my saying "that is fine" the indication of my pride and not admitting a mistake?

To charge two: my not liking the gospel of God's grace all depends on what the phrase means. If it means the same as Acts 20:24, then I happily accept it. I believe God as a moral being is gracious. If the gospel of God's grace means what I explained as the Calvinist vernacular, then I reject it as both incoherent and unjust.

*I can explain this further if you like.

Hi Orontes,

We now agree that the words of "the gospel of God's grace" is in the Bible. Please explain official LDS doctrine in regards to the gospel of God's grace. What must I do to be saved? (Acts 16). What does Jesus mean by saying that you must be born again to be able to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3)?

About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everybody's chains came loose. The jailer woke up, and when he saw the prison doors open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself because he thought the prisoners had escaped. But Paul shouted, "Don't harm yourself! We are all here!"

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house. At that hour of the night the jailer took them and washed their wounds; then immediately he and all his family were baptized. The jailer brought them into his house and set a meal before them; he was filled with joy because he had come to believe in God—he and his whole family. - Acts 16

Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. John 3:3

[Orontes]

Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter

Hi Orontes,

We now agree that the words of "the gospel of God's grace" is in the Bible. Please explain official LDS doctrine in regards to the gospel of God's grace. What must I do to be saved? (Acts 16). What does Jesus mean by saying that you must be born again to be able to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3)?

So we're going off of Act 20:24? The Mormon stance would be that God is gracious and it is good news that He is.

Per Acts 16: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Note: This of course undercuts your Calvinist stance as to believe there must be a believer. If man can believe then he must have the liberty to do so, and thus have free will. If God controls everything then the only possible believer is God. This means any belief in Christ, is God believing in Himself, and since God is already saved, this then undercuts the idea there is anything "to do" to be saved. Yet, Paul answered the fellow must believe in Christ. Therefore Paul (who is controlled by God) answers the question of the fellow, (who is also controlled by God) that he must believe, but given the fellow has no control: this is an impossibility. Thus, there is nothing the fellow can do to be saved and Paul's answer is a lie. It also raises the question, why God would ostensively ask Himself through another and answer Himself through another, about being saved in the first place when it doesn't apply?

Per John 3: Christ explains what He means: one must be born of water and the spirit.

[Fish-Hunter]

Originally Posted by Orontes

So we're going off of Act 20:24? The Mormon stance would be that God is gracious and it is good news that He is.

Per Acts 16: Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Note: This of course undercuts your Calvinist stance as to believe there must be a believer. If man can believe then he must have the liberty to do so, and thus have free will. If God controls everything then the only possible believer is God. This means any belief in Christ, is God believing in Himself, and since God is already saved, this then undercuts the idea there is anything "to do" to be saved. Y