Was Jesus sent to be crucified? (Jesus Christ, priests, moral, testimony)

[croak]

There is evidence from the Bible itself. If anything is untrue, I'll debate it. Hopefully.

Was Jesus Sent to be Crucified?One of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that Jesus had died and allowed for the shedding of his blood for the sake of granting forgiveness to people. In other words Jesus had died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. Let us investigate this topic from the Bible, and find out whether Jesus was sent to be crucified or that he was crucified:

1. Willingness of Jesus Christ to Die for Our Sins:

Peter and the two sons of Zebedee were with Jesus Christ before the elders of the people and the chief priests came to take him to crucify him. Jesus at this point talked to Peter and the two sons of Zebedee as in Matthew 26:38 " Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me". Then Jesus went a little further way from them and prayed to God as in Matthew 26:39 " And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt".

It is very clear from the above verse in Matthew 26:39 that Jesus had no intention of dying. In this verse it is shown that Jesus was praying strongly (Matthew mentions that Jesus repeated these prayer three time) to have this death removed from him. Had Jesus Christ been sent to be crucified he would not have hesitated to be killed at all. When I relate this to my Christian brothers, they tell me that this hesitation comes from the flesh side of him (in other words he was tempted), and that his soul which is godly does not have this hesitation at all. When we look at Matthew 26:38 we see that Jesus is contradicting this idea by saying, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death" (Matthew 26:38). He himself says that it really his soul that is hesitating and not his body. These are Jesus' own words.

2. God Answered the prayers of Jesus Christ:

After Jesus made the above mentioned prayer he was answered by God according to Hebrews 5:7 " Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared". These words clearly show that when Jesus was praying strongly to God, God would grant him his request. The word " heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7) mean that God granted him what he requested. So the above verse shows that when Jesus asked of God to " let this cup pass from" (Matthew 26:39) him, God respond to his prayer and saved him from death or crucifixion.

3. The Post Crucifixion Prophesied Events never happened:

When the people were asking Jesus Christ if he was going to show them a sign, He replied by saying that the only sign that they should expect is the sign of Jonas. Jesus also made sure to specify what exactly this sign was. The details are shown in the following verses:


- Matthew 12:38 " Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee".

- Matthew 12:39 " But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas".

- Matthew 12:40 " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth".

Jesus here emphasized what will happen to him by specifically saying that he will be like Jonas in terms of the number of days and nights he will be in the heart of the earth, " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40). Now let us see if this prophecy came to pass.

Jesus was crucified on Friday, this is certainly known among all Christians, and that is the reason for calling that Friday by "Good Friday". Jesus was buried on Friday night. Now let us start counting:


1. Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night number 1.
2. Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day number 1.
3. Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night number 2.


Mary Magdalene, very early in the morning before sun rise and after the Sabbath (Saturday), went to the see Jesus, and he was not there. The following verses relate this event:


* Mark 16:1 " And when the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him".

* Mark 16:2 " And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun".

* Mark 16:3 " And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?"

* Mark 16:4 " And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great".

* Mark 16:5 " And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted".

* Mark 16:6 " And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him".

The number of days and nights that Jesus had spent in the heart of the earth is 1 day and 2 nights. This clearly challenges what Jesus had prophesied. When I tell this to my Christian brothers, some of them responded by saying that what Jesus wanted to really say was that he will be gone for a while, and not that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. This is clearly not the case. Had Jesus meant that, he would have said it, but it is clear that he wanted the people to know that this was a sign (miracle) and that it will be like Joans' sign, and that he will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. These were his own words.

Why Would Jesus Have to Die on the Cross?


According to the Christian doctrine, Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. The idea here is that every human is born with sins, or that all humans will sin, and therefore it was necessary that someone as pure as Jesus would be the crucified to nullify these sins. The question is; why does anyone have to die for our sins when God, the All-Merciful, could as easily give us forgiveness if we ask for it? Isn't God the one who makes the rules? Why does He have to make someone suffer for our sins or for someone else's sins? Isn't that unjust of Him? According to the Bible the way to redemption could be obtained without the need for sacrifice. The Bible says:
* Ezekiel 18:20 " The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him".

* Ezekiel 18:21 " But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die".

Clearly the soul that sins shall die. Clearly that no one shall bear the iniquity (sins) of others. So Jesus cannot bear the sins of others either. If one is righteous then it shall be upon him, and if one commits a sin then it shall be upon him, and not on Jesus. Finally, the way to repentance and forgiveness is by turning from all sins, doing what is right, and keeping the commandments.

Also we see the same message given by Solomon. He says in the book of Ecclesiastes 12:13 " Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man". This is the whole message, and this is the conclusion of messages. It is that one should fear God, and keep the commandments, and nothing else.

Again in 2 Chronicles 7:14 " If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land". This clearly states that to seek forgiveness from God we have to humble ourselves, pray and seek God, and turn away from wickedness.

[croak]

Finally the Bible says in Samuel 15:22 " And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams". This clearly states that obeying God is better that sacrifice whether this sacrifice is of objects, animals, or humans, or any other type. What God likes is for us to heed and obey Him, and if that is what God likes then it is not of Him to come later and change his mind, and change his ways. God says in the Holy Quran,“ Verily God is All-Knowing, All-Wise” (Ch 9: Vr 28).

Now that we have seen this, Christians say that Jesus has changed some of these laws. Let's look at what Jesus says. In Matthew 5:17 " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil". Jesus clearly states that he was not sent to abolish the law, the law of which had already existed. So what is mentioned above cannot be discounted. Then Jesus continues to say, in Matthew 5:18 and 19 " For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven". Jesus here states that not even as much as a dot (tittle) shall not pass from the law. Every thing is kept the way it was. That is why the previous laws cannot be removed or discarded, and those who willfully change these laws " he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven".

[croak]

Well, have to go sleep. Hopefully will debate tomorrow. Good night!

The time now is 09:47 PM.

[precept]

1 Peter 1:18-21...."Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversations received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot; who verily WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BUT was manifest in these last times for you.

It is obvious from the above that Jesus came to this world fully prepared to die. The decision to die for humanity was made even before humanity was created. This fact more than any other speaks to the fact that for sin to be eradicated for ever; Jesus had to die. His death meant the eradication of sin and the eradication of the cause of sin-Satan. It also stands to reason that if Jesus did not die for the sins of humanity; Satan would have rulership and the full control of sin in perpetuity in God's creation, with no chance of God ever again being in full control. Satan, in other words would rule jointly with God.

Jesus knew he had to die; but though knowing, this did not take away the pain, when He knew that if His Father so desired, His Father could justly eliminate Satan, eradicate sin, and be in full control of His universe without having to witness His Son's death.

Jesus also knew that the vast majority of humanity for whom He volunteered to die; had no interest in this drama - the fight for salvation from sin. His request to "let the cup pass from him"; if met by His Father, would only have meant the damnation of all humanity; but He knew that his Father could make new humans but this time without sin and Satan. The big problem, however, was the faithful servants of God who depended on Jesus for their salvation. Servants such as Abraham, Enoch, Samuel, Job, king David; and many many more of God's servants would not now have been saved. And because Jesus wanted to save; even just "one" of humanity who voluntarily loved and served Him; He decided that "yes" He had to die, if only to save that "one" human from among the lost of humanity.


precept

[No*s]

RearingArab,

I will endeavor to show from the Scripture that Christ died, and that His teaching is one of suffering and self-denial. What kind of a man would teach this, and then, not follow through with it? I'll use the Gospel of Matthew to teach this and show forth His death. From this, you will clearly see that the Scripture (and I can do more books to show this) clearly teaches that Christ died, and that He taught dying to one's own self. All quotes are from the Gospel of Matthew, unless I say otherwise.

I need two posts. My apologies for the length ahead of time. That's inevitable with this topic and the proofs you requested. My first post demonstrates Christ's moral teachings. He demanded a lot out of people, and what He demanded dictates what He must do. Next, I will speak directly to Christ prophesying His own death and that scene in Gethsemene you asked about. Again, forgive the length.

Skipping to Jesus' adult life, He was one day teaching on the Mount of Olives near Jerusalem. He said, "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake" (5.11). When evil and suffering come to a person on account of their faith in Him, it is a blessing. If they drag them into the street, beat them, and kill them, it is a blessing. This is Christ's teaching. It is his standard.

In the self-same sermon, He says "You have heard it said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away" (5.38-42). Here Christ changes the old Law, which laid a limit of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" upon vengeance. Christ does not abolish this limitation; He makes it stricter. Now, you take no vengeance at all. If they rob you, you give them more than what they want. If they beat you, you accept it and submit to more. Likewise, Christ intensified the Laws against adultery and murder so that even lust or hatred constitutes as adultery or murder respectively.

In fact, He goes so far as to teach "You have heard that it was said, `You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven" (Mt. 5.43-45a). According to Christ here, we cannot hate our enemies. We must love them, and pray for them. Now even our enemies are to be treated as our friends. After all, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (5.46-48).

He made many other commands, equally difficult. For this reason, He said "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, an dthere are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it" (7.13-14). For this reason He said "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven," so that even those who do miracles in His name and prophesy will be told "I never knew you; depart from Me you who practice lawlessness" (7.21,23b).

He made harsh commands. He told his disciples "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead," (7.22) signifying by "dead" those who have not come into the new life He brought, and that they should bury those of their own who passed away. Specifically here, he referred to a disciple's father. However, He had the power to forgive sins and heal the crippled (9.1-8). So strict is He, and with such authority from God, that He could say, "whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father who is in heaven."

Such do these things combine, that when the disciples of the prophet Saint John the Forerunner asked him if He was the Messiah, He responded, "Go and tell John the things which you hear and see. The blind see and the lame walk; the lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear; the dead are raised up and the poor have the gospel preached to them. And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (11.4-6). Such a mission of mercy and salvation was Christ on that He taught that "whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward."

For this reason, at the Last Judgement, He will separate men as sheep and goats. To the sheep He will say, "Come you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me." They, of course, will wonder where they saw Him so destitute, and He will say "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me." The goats, however did not practice mercy, and they will be damned as a result (25.31-46).

It is little wonder that a man such as Christ, who demands such obedience, did such deeds, made such claims, and taught such a hard way will cause people to oppose Him. For this reason He said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it" (10.34-39). The absolute obedience required by Christ naturally offends people. This division brings the sword down on His followers, not His followers bringing the sword. For, if you try to save your life, you will lose it. You must accept self-denial, and if it comes, even death for His sake. That is the teaching of Christ.

This brings us to Christ's warning: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you. Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for My name's sake" (10.16-22). This is the future Christ promised His followers: a future where they could only win by losing.

This brings us to Christ's death. What sort of man commands this of His followers but does not follow through? That man is an evil man. If a man tell someone to die, to accept suffering, beatings, humiliation, and even to die, all with joy, then I had best be willing to do so myself. If he does not do it, he is the worst kind of hypocrite. He is a hypocrite whose hypocrasy is compounded with murder.

I must continue in a second post Christ's teachings about His own death, that He foresaw it and accepted it. I apologize that this is long, but I feel I should be thorough to put it into its context.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by RearingArabian

Well, have to go sleep. Hopefully will debate tomorrow. Good night!

No doubt such extensive plagiarism was exhausting. I, on the other hand, find it objectionable.

[No*s]

Now, Part II -- Jesus' statements concerning His death

I outlined in my previous post that Jesus' teaching is exacting and demanding. It is so demanding, that if He did not submit Himself to the same demands, Christ would have been a liar and hypocrite of the worst sort. Far from being godly, he would be a devil.

Now, one day Jesus pulled His disciples aside and asked them who people said He was. He ended it with an incomparable statement about Himself and a blessing upon Peter and the disciples on account of Peter's confession.

"He asked His disciples, saying `Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?' So they said, `Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.' He said to them, `But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter answered and said `You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' Jesus answered and said to him, `Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, an dthe gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" (16.13-20).

However, only a short while later, Christ called Peter Satan himself. Why? Because Peter denied that Christ would die. The Scripture says:

"From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief prists and scribes, and be killed, and be raised on the third day. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, `Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!' But He turned and said to Peter, `Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of man" (16.21-23).

Peter desired to stop Jesus from dying there. There was a Jewish belief at the time that the Messiah would ride in conquest, drive out the Romans, and establish a kingdom that way. Jesus, on the other hand, came to die, and by His death establish the kingdom. Little wonder He called Him "Satan" when Peter repeated the temptation Satan presented to Christ in the desert.

He called it being "mindful of the things of men," because this is one of the human ways of establishing the Kingdom of God, not God's way. Many false prophets and false christs have come trying to do that very thing that Peter had in mind. In the second century, one Jew named Simon Bar-Kochba rebelled against the Romans and presented himself as a prophet and God's annointed. He died and Jerusalem was leveled. Here in America a man named Koresh claimed similar things. His compound was set ablaze, and he died.

Since that way leads to destruction, Christ taught that "if anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to His works" (16.24-27). So, Jesus teaches that He must die, Peter denies it, Jesus calls him "Satan," and then, proceeds to teach that this is the way to life. It is the way He follows.

In another portion of the Gospel, it says "Now while they were stayin gin Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up'" (17.22-23). Here Jesus prophesies, and His prophesy came true in its fullness. Jesus was betrayed by Judas, handed to the Jews, who delivered Him to the Romans, who killed Him. Next, He was buried, but the grave could not contain Him. He broke death, and led those that sin and death held as prisonors free.

In another place, He is going to Jerusalem, and Matthew records "Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, `Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again'" (20.17-18).

Next, Jesus tells His disciples, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be your servant. And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your slave--just as the Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many'" (20.25-28). Here, Jesus links the morality He teaches explicitly with His life. His life, thus, is an example. He is, however, more. He calls His life a "ransom." If He is giving His life as a ransom, then He is dying, but in doing so, what a great ransom it was. In dying, He descended into the realm of the dead. There, death took him for three days, but after that, He shattered its bonds. In such a way, His heroic act was to give hope to humanity, as we were enslaved by sin, death, and Satan.

Next, He prophesied in a parable about what would happen to Him:

"Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, `They will respect my son.' But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, `This is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance.' So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?" His disciples answered wisely: "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render him the fruits in their seasons." (21.33-41).

Thus was Jesus treated. Just as the prophets had been slain, so too was Jesus killed by a cooperation between His people's leaders and the Romans. However, St. Matthew quotes an ancient prophecy from the book of Isaiah about this in the following verse: "The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes."

Still later in 26.1-5, Jesus prophecies His death and the Pharisees consipre: "Now it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, that He said to His disciples, `You know that after two days is the Passover, and the Son of Man will be delivered up to be crucified.' Then the chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the people assembled at the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas, and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him. But they said, `Not during the feast, lest there be an uproar among the people.'"

Now, following this, a woman took a whole jar of perfume and annointed Jesus' feet. His disciples, specifically Judas, protested this, that it could be used to feed the poor. Jesus responded saying, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel i spreached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her" (26.10b-13). Again, a clear reference to Jesus' death and burial. This time, though, He is being ceremonially prepared for His burial.


OK, so I'm breaking my word. I have one last section. It deals with some of you passages you objected with and how to interpret them. I apologize again for the length. However, what you will have is about as thorough a Christian defense that the Christian Scriptures teach Jesus was crucified as you'll be able to find .

[No*s]

Finally, Jesus institutes the Eucharist with His disciples. The account goes as follows:

"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, blessed and broke
it, and gave it to the disciples and said, `Take, eat, this is My Body.' Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, `Drink from it, all of you. For this is My Blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not drink of this
fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Fathers Kingdom'" (26.26-28).

This is the central part of Christian worship. Christ, in the Gospel of John, said that "he who does not eat My Body and drink My blood has no life in him." I must digress a bit to explain the importance of this, and I apologize.

After the events in Eden with Adam, mankind was rendered imperfect. We were flawed and sinful, and from these we were separated from God. God, however, is the sole source of life. In so doing, our race died the day Adam ate the fruit.

This problem was further complicated by the fact that it was genetic. Every child is made in the mold of their father and their mother. The image is stamped, and the assembly-line of humanity continues. However, if the first mold is broken, then all the subsequent images made from it are broken. If we no longer had the image of God in us whole, then we could never become like God.

Our position was hopeless, and it looked as if the Devil had won. There is no way that something as flawed as we had become could repair itself and exalt itself. In that case, our race dies utterly. On the other hand, if we perish, then the crown and redemptive power of God's creation goes with it, for long before us, Satan had sinned. This was unacceptable, for it would render all God's efforts useless.

The solution was to bring God down to us. In order to solve
the problem, God took a young virgin, and He caused her to conceive. He then united Himself to the child, and in that way God became man. As God assuming humanity, Jesus had a restored image. He was a perfect man once more, but He had to complete His task and free us utterly. So, He died, just as we die, and died an ignoble and cursed death. In this way, He reached down to the very dregs of our corruption, and exposed it to God.

Now, we don't heal automatically, so Jesus instituted the Church, baptism, and several other things. Here is where the Eucharist comes in. The Eucharist is Christ's Body and Blood. It mysteriously participates in Christ's incarnation as a man. When we eat and drink, we participate in the incarnation through it. Without this meal, there is no Christian salvation. Therefore, this passage is the ultimate prophecy of Christ's death, and to this day, it is the ultimate way to participate in it and receive God's grace.

Following the institution of the Eucharist, Judas leaves the Lord's table, and Jesus goes to Gethsemene. There, in anticipation, Jesus prays. You had questions on this passage, so I will deal with it in greater detail.

It says:

"Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemene, and siad to the disciples, `Sit here while I go and pray over there.' And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, `My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me.' He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, `O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.' Then He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, `What? Could you not watch with Me one hour? Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.' Again, a second time, He went away and prayed, saying, `O My Father, if this cup cannot pass away from Me unless I drink it, Your will be done.' And He came and found them asleep again, for their eyes were heavy. So He left them, went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words. Then He came to His disciples and said
to them, `Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold the hour is at hand, and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise, let us be going. See, My betrayer is at hand'" (26.36-46).

Note here that Jesus says that "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." Your Christian friends were right. There is a conflict between His "flesh" and His "spirit." It is not a matter of His body rebelling, though. Remember what I said about man's image being imperfect and apply it here.

Christ had come to heal our disease, sin. However, in order to do that, He had to experience the full brunt of our imperfections, or else He could not restore our image, much less enable us to attain a likeness to God.

Now consider specifically Who Christians believe Jesus is. Jesus is God Almighty. I have no way to soften that blow. He is God Almighty, because God had to come to us. No creature could restore us to what we needed to be. God is one God, not three, but He has three persons. It's confusing, I know, but if we take seriously that God created the universe, then
there is no way we can truly understand God. That is the Christian claim. It is Jesus' claim as well. Who else could change the Law of God, as He claimed to do? Now, when I say change, I don't mean abolish. Jesus claimed that authority every time He said "You have heard it said of old...but I say to you," because every Law He changed was part of God's Law.

Jesus, thus, being God never had a beginning. He is uncreated and has always existed with the Father. He is beyond time, but when He became man, He subjected Himself it. He Who never slept, slept. Jesus had always been with the Father, but to heal us He took our sin-disease upon Himself.

Now, can you think of any better way for sin to tempt Him if what I said is true? Somehow, the Son, who is completely inseparable from God, must suffer the consequences of our separation. Our sins in light of God, Who is so merciful, should make any man quake, but we have always lived like this. Jesus hadn't.

However, where Adam succumbed, Jesus did not. When He took all our weaknesses, He overcame them. The fact that He did this, does not lesson the agony of a temptation.

I agree, if God had to kill Jesus just to forgive us, that it would not be a pretty picture. However, if "sin" is a disease, and God must repair it, then it is different. The same word that is translated "forgive" may also be translated "remit." God is always ready to forgive, but it doesn't erase the consequences of sin. That is where Jesus comes in: only He could do that, and He could only do that as a man.

Thus, Jesus is tempted in Gethsemane. However, note that He does not falter; He does not fail. Jesus, when Judas arrives, goes willingly. He stopped Peter from attacking the guards to rescue Him.

"Now, after the Sabbath, as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. And behold, there was a great earthquake; for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men. And the angel answered and said to the women, `Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. And go quicly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is goin gbefore you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold I have told you.' So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring the disciples word. And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, `Rejoice!' So they came and held him by the feet and worshipped Him. Then Jesus said to them, `Do not be afraid, Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me'" (28.1-10).

Someone cannot rise from the dead unless he dies. If the Scripture is reliable, then you must understand all the quotes in light of this. If it has been tampered with, then simply declare it so, because the Scriptures all point to this. Jesus, who was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, and rose from the dead, and on the third day ascended
into heaven. If you still demand it, I can address all of your Scriptures, but I think after this, it will be unnecessary.

I also give you one admonission: stop listening to websites or the like. Go pick up a copy of the Gospels online and read them. I know that you haven't read them, or you would never have used the quotes you used, especially the Jonah one. I don't know where you got your information, but you're not going to look good if you try to reply to what I've said about Matthew without bothering to have read the Gospel. You can always tell the difference.

[Scuba Pete]

Dear Rearing Arabian...

The only question that needs to be answered is whether the tomb is empty or not.

I could go to great pains to show you how erroneous your assumptions and time line are, and for what? You would find yet another straw dog to lay claim to in order to justify your disbelief.

I would suggest that if you honestly lay all of your preconceptions aside and honestly sought God, you would find him. Would you find Jesus? You won't know unless you go and look openly and honestly for yourself.

[croak]

I'm sorry I forgot the link. You think I write these kinds of articles? I don't go around saying I wrote this and that.

http://www.missionislam.com/comprel/crucified.htm
There. Clear as day. Sorry if I forget at 10:00 PM. I guess I don't have the right to forget something.

Anyways..........

Originally Posted by precept

1 Peter 1:18-21...."Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversations received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a Lamb without blemish and without spot; who verily WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, BUT was manifest in these last times for you.

As far as I know, there are numerous additions in the Bible. So, unless you can find more evidence of this, I will treat it as an addition.

Originally Posted by No*s

All quotes are from the Gospel of Matthew, unless I say otherwise.

Why? Only Matthew had records of these sayings of Jesus (as)?

Originally Posted by No*s

For this reason He said "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven,"

So, it is the Will of Allah to choose who shall enter Heaven. Not the will of Jesus (sa).

For this reason He said "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be those of his own household. He that loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it" (10.34-39).

Well, I do agree you should love Allah most of all (not Jesus (as)). But wasn't he crucified after he said this? Then why would he mention the cross? However, I am completely against the first part. He doesn't want to bring peace, but a sword? So, let's summarise it: Anyone who does not follow him is killed, as it isn't a religion of peace, but of the sword. Islam is a religion of peace, though; even if someone does not become Muslim, that doesn't mean you can kill him.

This is the future Christ promised His followers: a future where they could only win by losing.

So that would mean the future, which would be considered the future by them, is a time when they can only win by losing? Actually, Christians seemingly dominate the world today, as having the most followers. Seems he (as) broke his promise.

Originally Posted by No*s

an dthe gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Isn't Hades in Greek mythology? Shouldn't it be Hell?

Originally Posted by No*s

"From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief prists and scribes, and be killed, and be raised on the third day. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, `Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!' But He turned and said to Peter, `Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of man" (16.21-23).

Well, if Jesus (as) was Allah, then Peter probably thought "Well, Allah can't die, can He? He's All-Powerful, and He is far from dying." I think that Jesus (as) should have said "It is my Father's Command that I die for you and all of mankind." But calling him Satan? The Bible is very confusing.

Originally Posted by No*s

"if anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to His works" (16.24-27).

Why does it always say "take up his cross and follow me" or something similar? What does a cross have to do with Allah? It's just a thing made of wood to crucify people. Well, Muhammed (saas), didn't desire to come after him. Actually, he was frightened when he saw Jibril (Gabriel). So, this does not mean that Muhammed (saas) is not a Prophet, in case you're wondering.

Originally Posted by No*s

In another portion of the Gospel, it says "Now while they were stayin gin Galilee, Jesus said to them, `The Son of Man is about to be betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him, and the third day He will be raised up'" (17.22-23). Here Jesus prophesies, and His prophesy came true in its fullness. Jesus was betrayed by Judas, handed to the Jews, who delivered Him to the Romans, who killed Him. Next, He was buried, but the grave could not contain Him. He broke death, and led those that sin and death held as prisonors free.
"Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, `Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again'" (20.17-18).

How do you know it came true in its fullness? Where's the proof?

1. Friday night Jesus was buried. This is night number 1.
2. Saturday day Jesus was still in the grave. This is day number 1.
3. Saturday night Jesus was still in the grave. This is night number 2.

I don't see a third day. Do you?

His life, thus, is an example. He is, however, more. He calls His life a "ransom." If He is giving His life as a ransom, then He is dying, but in doing so, what a great ransom it was. In dying, He descended into the realm of the dead. There, death took him for three days, but after that, He shattered its bonds. In such a way, His heroic act was to give hope to humanity, as we were enslaved by sin, death, and Satan.

Why should "the son of God" be taken for three days? "After that, he shattered it's bonds." Does it take "the son of God" three days? If he was really powerful, he wouldn't even have to stay a moment there.

Now, following this, a woman took a whole jar of perfume and annointed Jesus' feet. His disciples, specifically Judas, protested this, that it could be used to feed the poor. Jesus responded saying, "Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a good work for Me. For you have the poor with you always, but Me you do not have always. For in pouring this fragrant oil on My body, she did it for My burial. Assuredly, I say to you, wherever this gospel i spreached in the whole world, what this woman has done will also be told as a memorial to her" (26.10b-13).

So, I thought he was "commiting suicide" to help people. Now, he lets a woman use a whole jar of perfume instead of helping the people he came to save? Not such a nice person.

Originally Posted by No*s

This problem was further complicated by the fact that it was genetic. Every child is made in the mold of their father and their mother. The image is stamped, and the assembly-line of humanity continues. However, if the first mold is broken, then all the subsequent images made from it are broken. If we no longer had the image of God in us whole, then we could never become like God.

Well, then why don't I know about a "sin gene" in the DNA? Isn't that how genetics work?

Originally Posted by No*s

I agree, if God had to kill Jesus just to forgive us, that it would not be a pretty picture. However, if "sin" is a disease, and God must repair it, then it is different. The same word that is translated "forgive" may also be translated "remit." God is always ready to forgive, but it doesn't erase the consequences of sin. That is where Jesus comes in: only He could do that, and He could only do that as a man.

So simply, it means Allah is not All-Powerful, that He cannot do what He wants. It's surprising that the Creator of everything cannot simply do what He wants.

Originally Posted by No*S

Someone cannot rise from the dead unless he dies. If the Scripture is reliable, then you must understand all the quotes in light of this. If it has been tampered with, then simply declare it so, because the Scriptures all point to this. Jesus, who was crucified for our sins, died, was buried, and rose from the dead, and on the third day ascended
into heaven. If you still demand it, I can address all of your Scriptures, but I think after this, it will be unnecessary.

I don't think the Scripture is reliable.

Originally Posted by No*s

I also give you one admonission: stop listening to websites or the like. Go pick up a copy of the Gospels online and read them. I know that you haven't read them, or you would never have used the quotes you used, especially the Jonah one. I don't know where you got your information, but you're not going to look good if you try to reply to what I've said about Matthew without bothering to have read the Gospel. You can always tell the difference.

Well, Matthew didn't exactly make you look good, as far as I can see.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

I could go to great pains to show you how erroneous your assumptions and time line are, and for what? You would find yet another straw dog to lay claim to in order to justify your disbelief.

Hmmm, so you want me to show you many reasons, instead of a few? That's easy.