Do the teachings of Jesus allow us to judge? (hell, doctrine)

[lew0049]

Originally Posted by gnostic

The Crusades, torturing and burning of heretics and witches are real historical examples of Christians failing Jesus' teachings of not judging, not persecuting and of not "love thy neighbours".

I also recall that Jesus taught, not to provide false witness. Christians turned against each neighbours, friends, sons, brothers, mothers, daughters, etc, by informing the inquisitors of
what they perceive to be practices of witchcraft and devil's worship. Truly disgraceful behaviours where they would lie and exaggerate of what the other person did.

Christians in their early history, didn't have that much power, politically, and were persecuted. But once they had real power, these Christians became corrupted by this power, and became the persecutors for the centuries that followed Constantine.

In many ways, I have to agree with what you are saying here. The whole idea of religion is a man-made concept, which also implies that the individuals found in any religion are simply men/women. I guess this is one of the reasons why I hesitate when someone asks "what religion are you" because there is a certain stereotype associated with every religion.
For example, as you mentioned above, the crusades and the witch trials. I have many responses to these events, but in my mind the most important one to annouce is that these people were not me - they might have the same beliefs as I do, but their actions are not my actions. It's similiar to observing someone who claims to be a 'Christian' because they go to church every week, but for every other hour of that week, they live their lives far from that of what, I believe, being a Christian encompasses. Am I judging these people? Well, in a sense I definitely am (Actually I would consider it observing) because I hope that my peers would do the same to me (and if my flaws are so apparent, approach me is a constructive manner). What I am not doing though is saying that I am a better person/Christinan than they are because I have countless flaws in my life and the lifestyle in which I live. It's like the morons you see on street corners proclaiming "you are going to hell for this ___, and this___." I almost laugh at these people because all they are doing is pushing people away from their beliefs.

I believe the words contained within the Bible to be God's words; however, I 100% believe that everyone is judged accordingly. Specifically, I can only see the physical actions of people, I cannot see their heart/inside. When I've been asked "do you believe a morally great person, like Mother Theresa, who has no faith (I really don't know if she did or didn't, just referring to her moral actions) should go to heaven or someone who claims to be a Christian (goes to church 1 hr a week but would be considered by society as an overall BAD person by their daily actions) should go to heaven?" My answer is that I really don't know because I am not God, and for me to make that type of a judgment would imply that I have the knowledge of God, which I do not. An analogy I find appropriate is "just because there is a rusty bucket, doesn't mean that the water inside the bucket is not pure." Anyways, sorry for the rambling as my response was not truly specific to just this topic. Have a good day
-chip

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by lew49

I almost laugh at these people because all they are doing is pushing people away from their beliefs.

Which is precisely what happened to me. I couldn't question without ultimatum and condemnation. I was close to become a Christian when I was in my late teen. At that time, my sister had already a religion, and I was looking for mine.

Back then, Christianity was the only religion around, although there were different sects. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism were non-existence at that time. I supposed my questions were heretical, although I didn't know this at this time. But several Christians I have met, had turn me off Christianity.

[Scott C.]

Originally Posted by astarath

Right, hypocritical Christians that Christ warns them not to be (speck and log parable!)

Back to the original issue...

"Judge" has different connotations. We have legal judges and most agree we need them. Does this violate Jesus' command to "judge ye not"? No, it doesn't.

I believe Jesus taught its wrong to commit adultery. So, if I commit adultery or you commit adultery, is it wrong for me to recognize that we sinned? No, that's a correct judgement.

But, if you commit adultery and I don't, is it wrong for me to be condescending towards you and to think that I'm better than you? Yes, it is wrong. That seems to be what Jesus condemned in the accusers of the woman taken in adultery.

Do I know what makes others tick? Have I walked in their shoes? Do I understand their upbringing? No, I don't, so I should not pass "judgement" on why someone does something which I believe to be a sin. But, I should and must recognize what sin is. But, I have plenty of my own sins and do not know the hearts of others. So while I can often recognize a behavior in another as a sin and judge it to be such, I must not condemn others or put myself above them. Pride is a sin too.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

Seems to me that this is exactly what Jesus was talking about when he said "Judge Not Lest Ye Be Judged."

I wonder if you hold yourself to the exact same standard by which you judged him?
How is it that you know he never asked Jesus to be his Lord and Savior and merely wants no part of being saved from his sin?
Seems to me that there is actually no way you can know these things.

Wonder why so many people are so concerned with Paul has to say about topic over what Jesus has to say?
Is that not doing the exact thing you accuse the fellow in the post above of?
Why is it ok for you, but not for him?

Yes I do. I have received Jesus as my Lord and Savior and I do not try to justify my sin.

I questioned him and as far as I know he answered honestly.

I do not agree that Paul has said anything contrary to Jesus on this subject.

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by gnostic

Did you picket with signs that he should not become priest because he is gay?

Or harass him (not necessarily with death threats) with constant phone calls, mails or emails, text messages or put graffiti on his home because he is gay?

If you have, then that persecuting, and then I am afraid you've failed Jesus' teaching of -

Do not judge unless you want to be judged.
Do not persecute unless you want to be persecuted?

No. This person was in Arkansas and I am far from there. However I would consider it appropriate behavior to hold a church responsible for its actions that are contrary to faith in Jesus.

I doubt that I would view harassment the same way others do. As Christians we are duty bound to persuede people to become Christians. I do not bug people for fun, profit or simply because I don't like their actions.

I disagree. And I don't remember Jesus saying anything like Do not persecute; do you have a verse?

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Did you stop reading at Chapter 6?
Rom 14:1-8 (particularily verse 4):
Actually, all of Romans 14 is relevant, particularily these verses:
13:
22:

I never stop reading, lol.

Rom. 14:4 Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand.

Indeed a person who has received Jesus as Lord is a servant of Jesus, however this person had not recieved Jesus as Lord.

Rom 14:13 Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way.

This applies to people who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior. Even so this verse applies:
II Tim. 4:2 preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn aside unto fables

There are differences between brothers about things that are not sin. Religious observances, things that sometimes appear to be sin but are not. For instance, I am often judged for not believing that God is in three persons but it is not a sin to believe that. I believe that a belief that God is in three persons borders on idolatry but I do not see that altering a person's salvation and I don't make a big issue of it because it is not likely to affect that person's Christian walk adversely, only his testimony. In any event he will have to answer to God for it not to me.

[4nashiym]

A wise Christian can judge. The notion that we- must-not-judge-because-God-is-the-only-rightful-judge is not biblical. Our Lord Jesus Christ once said that:


(Matthew 7:1-5) Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

These pronouncements of the Lord Jesus (if carefully considered from context) does not mean that a Christian must not judge. He is directing these to hypocrites. Hypocrites criticize and judge others of things which they themselves have, more grievously. A beam is greater than a mote! This is the practice of false preachers.


(Romans 2:21-22) Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?


It is not wrong to say “thou shall not steal” if you steal not,nor is it wrong to criticize someone who commits adultery if you are not committing adultery. If we judge somebody who continuously commits adultery, that by such act he can not enter heaven, we are not sinning against God because it is God’s judgment that we are passing to such person. In fact, it is our duty as Christians to judge those who recklessly transgress God’s law.


(John 7:24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
In the true Church of God, it is God’s doctrine that Christians must know how to judge rightfully among themselves.


(1 Corinthians 6:1-5, 9-10) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

The Apostle Paul teaches the Christians at Corinth to know how to ‘rightfully judge’ within themselves because the Corinthians have been so lenient in judging those who commits immorality and diverse transgressions, which the Apostle Paul ‘judged’ saying that these people will not inherit the kingdom of God.


(1 Corinthians 5:3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed.