War in heaven? (Earth, Revelation, Christianity, Satan, God)

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Let's talk about this a little bit more.

Sure.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

What exactly do you believe the war was about?

Before the 2nd Temple Period, there were nothing in regarding to war in heaven.

Moses, who was the most famous of all Hebrew prophet, made no mention of it. Elijah, 2nd in importance in prophet-hood, left no writing, but the story that narrated his life, also made no mention of such war.

As to the Christian theology. Jesus also made no reference to a war of heaven.

We only have the so-called incoherent "prophecies" in Revelation, in regarding to the war in heaven. But clearly, the war in heaven didn't originate with this "John" who supposedly wrote the Revelation.

The story originated with the Book of Enoch, but Satan is not the main character in the war between the good (holy) Watchers or fallen Watchers. There were about 200 watchers, but it wasn't exactly a war, for the fallen angels were powerless to fight.

Satan only plays a part in the war, during the writing of the later Haggada.

But I believed that the Book of Enoch and the Haggada were influenced by non-Hebrew religions/myths, such as the Zoroastrianism (where the Jews became influenced by dualism, eg. good vs evil), the Egyptian struggle between Horus and Seth, the Babylonian Epic of Creation (or more precisely Enuma Elish), and lastly, the Hellenistic Greeks who lived in the Near East and Egypt (eg. war between the Titans and Olympians).

It would seemed that the Jews living in the 3rd century were greatly influenced by foreign religion, and since they had no war in heaven, authors and scholars began inventing their own.

And lastly, you should consider this. The Jews (before Jesus' time) who wrote about Satan's Fall and the war between 2 groups of Watchers were not even prophet, but clearly these literature had large influenced with Jesus and his disciples.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

If Satan was trying to convince his followers of something, what was it? And who were his followers?

According to the early Judaism, there were no Satan, therefore there were no followers.

According to the early part of Jews returns from exile, Satan was merely a servant or agent of God, testing people's faith, like in the Book of Job. Satan only did what God decrees.

It was only after 3rd century BC, did Satan became a personification of evil. And Satan continued to evolve in Jesus' time and afterward.

The Haggada (written between 2nd century BC and 2nd century AD) contained narratives that are biblical, but in more inventive and highly exaggerating forms.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by gnostic

Sure.

On second thought, maybe let's not. I sort of thought we'd maybe find some common ground and could explore our differences from there, but you lost me right off the bat.

We only have the so-called incoherent "prophecies" in Revelation, in regarding to the war in heaven.

Well, maybe that's all you've got. The Latter-day Saints believe the war in heaven actually took place prior to the creation of our universe and that Revelation is merely recounting the story. It's an essential part of God's overall plan for humankind. Anyway, thanks for the information. It was interesting.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by katzpur

The Latter-day Saints believe the war in heaven actually took place prior to the creation of our universe and that Revelation is merely recounting the story.

According to the Haggada and The Book of Jubilees, the Fall of Satan and his followers took place after the creation of Adam, but before Adam and Eve's expulsion from Eden, but it was not a war. Like Adam and Eve, Satan and his followers were expulsed.

The LDS, or more precisely the Book of Mormon and other LDS literature, I believed based it upon the Revelation, and therefore can hardly be considered genuine source, and almost 2 millenniums after the fact.

[sojourner]

If Christ is the King of heaven...and Christ is the Prince of Peace...How can there be anything but peace in heaven...?

[Charity]

The War in Heaven was first noted in the Old Testament, that would have been before the birth and ministry of Jesus. The Battle referred to in the book of Revelation written by John is talking about prophecy.

The war in Heaven happened because The Angel Lucifer wanted to show more power than God, hence he and 1/3 of the angels who were his followers were cast down to earth. Lucifer , Prince of the air, was later changed to Satan as far as I can tell somewhere around the time when Jesus was born...Satan was also referred to as Beezelsbub, Prince Of Darkness, Plus several other names and I believe in Revelation it appears differently

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by charity

The War in Heaven was first noted in the Old Testament, that would have been before the birth and ministry of Jesus.

Where does it say that in the OT of the war in heaven?

Originally Posted by charity

Lucifer , Prince of the air, was later changed to Satan as far as I can tell somewhere around the time when Jesus was born...

Lucifer was never used in the original text, until the translation of the OT into Latin, by St Jerome. So Isaiah didn't write LUCIFER in the original Hebrew. Lucifer came from Eosphoros, the son of Eos, the goddess of dawn, in Greek mythology; so Lucifer was a Roman translation of Greek equivalent, which is the morning star, ie the planet Venus.

And personally I don't think Lucifer and Satan are the same people.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by gnostic

The LDS, or more precisely the Book of Mormon and other LDS literature, I believed based it upon the Revelation, and therefore can hardly be considered genuine source, and almost 2 millenniums after the fact.

Hey, gnostic, I'm really not interested in arguing whether LDS doctrine is "a genuine source," so let's just agree to disagree on the specifics of the War in Heaven, okay? Just FYI, though, our doctrine on this subject is not "based upon Revelation," it's based upon revelation, and the time lapse between when an event happened and when the specifics of it were revealed is immaterial.

[Charity]

Originally Posted by gnostic

Where does it say that in the OT of the war in heaven?


Lucifer was never used in the original text, until the translation of the OT into Latin, by St Jerome. So Isaiah didn't write LUCIFER in the original Hebrew. Lucifer came from Eosphoros, the son of Eos, the goddess of dawn, in Greek mythology; so Lucifer was a Roman translation of Greek equivalent, which is the morning star, ie the planet Venus.

And personally I don't think Lucifer and Satan are the same people.

Isaiah 14:12 15 KJV Lucifer is Fallen, The good thing about this is I can believe what I want and you can believe what you desire to believe..

Thank you and have a good night