The Virgin Mary - or was she? (Jesus Christ, reject, Earth)

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by kadzbiz

I've always thought of the bible as being somewhat historically true, but that some of the events have either been made up or completely embelished to symbolize an idea.

If you think it, it must be true.

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by Seyorni

Aren't a lot of people abstinent before marriage?

Here lies Molly Magee
She lived to one hundred and three
For thirteen years she kept her virginity
Not bad for this vicinity.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by sandy whitelinger

Here lies Molly Magee
She lived to one hundred and three
For thirteen years she kept her virginity
Not bad for this vicinity.

What do you want on your tombstone?

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

What do you want on your tombstone?

I told you I was sick.

[angellous_evangellous]

YouTube - Tombstone commercial: Firing Squad (1994)

[MidnightBlue]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

What do you want on your tombstone?

In memory of Bill
Born 1960
Walked off into the woods in 2085
and was never seen again.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

I think you hit the nail on the head. Unfortunately, a lot of people over the centuries have adopted Augustine's views.

Well, as you know, Agustine isn't the Catholic Church. We take what we agree with and recognize where he was weirdo.

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

They might have been a little confused. Orthodox Christians don't believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary because they don't share the Roman Catholic view of original sin. For the Orthodox, original sin doesn't mean you're born guilty or born sinful; it just means you have a propensity to sin. Orthodox, like Catholics, believe that Mary was without sin. I think most Orthodox would agree that if the Catholic doctrine of original sin were correct, the Immaculate Conception would also be correct.

The dogmatically-defined title of Mary, Theotokos (Birth-giver of God), by itself, could possibly be construed as being in agreement with Hope's suggestion that Jesus need not have even inherited any genetic material from Mary. However, (I think) that's plainly not the Orthodox view, and in my view the title Meter tou Theou (Mother of God) clearly implies that she was Jesus' actual mother, and not merely the portal by which he entered the world.

Of course, the ancients didn't have any understanding of genetics, or even a very accurate idea of reproduction, so who knows what they meant?

I was aware they didn't believe in IC, but I've never understood why in EO theology Mary should have been born with the inclination to sin (corrupt nature) in order for it all to work. That Jesus took our flesh to cleanse it. If He took flesh that had no corruption in it (IC), He wouldn't be cleansing it.

We just believe He had already cleansed it prior to the Incarnation. Which is why:

490 To become the mother of the Savior, Mary "was enriched by God with the gifts appropriate to such a role." The angel Gabriel at the moment of the annunciation salutes her as "full of grace." In fact, in order for Mary to be able to give the free assent of her faith to the announcement of her vocation, it was necessary that she be wholly borne by God's grace. CCC

You following me?

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

(Putting on my Orthodox hat.) I would prefer to say that Mary was in need of theosis, in that although she was without sin, she still needed to be united to the divine nature.

What I'm having a problem with is the idea that there's some natural or mechanistic process by which fathers (as opposed to mothers) or sexual intercourse imparts original sin to the offspring. It's not scriptural, it's not -- Augustine and his followers aside -- patristic, and it seems like a fatuous and superstitious idea. I mean, it's one thing to believe in miracles, and another to make up "laws" to explain the miracles, isn't it?

Yup...I'd like to know this too. Although I would think this would be more of a problem for EO's (refer to above) since it's been my understanding that the sinful nature was transmitted both biologically and spiritually. We don't believe that. For us it's spiritually only.

If you understood differently I'd have to take your word for it since this was brought to my attention by No*s.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

I'm having trouble seeing Jesus as an alien implant in Mary's womb, with no human ancestry.

"Alien implant"? Unless you think being God makes you an alien. Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding your use of the word.

Yeah, the human ancestry part does make one think. Like I said, Scripture doesn't shed enough light on this. I merely have my conjectures and the conjectures I've heard of others. How much or what kind of genetic material Jesus may have inherited from Mary is a mystery.

That seems to put you in Augustine's camp, believing that it's sexual intercourse that causes original sin. Frankly, though, I think Augustine was a disturbed individual. Does the Bible actually say anything at all about Jesus' sinlessness being the result of his virgin co