Hell Was Invented (?) (Jesus, punishment, Revelation, prophet, eternal)

[GreenKepi]

[quote=Mr. Peanut;1006508][quote=GreenKepi;1005605]

Alas, as I read your later posts, I see you are no believer in the Bible whatsoever, yet you asked us to give proof from same for the doctrine of eternal punishment of the wicked. When presented with verses which imply such doctrine, you revealed your true design and contempt for the very scripture you wished to base your theory from. This will not do, sir. This will not do, not for me. No, no no!

Please enlighten me...where do you obtain the opinion that I am no believer in the Bible whatsoever...what later posts!? From the Bible is where I base my beliefs on...but let me ask you a question. When you say Bible...which version? What year of translation? Because...as you call me, "Sir" (and you are not even sure if I am a sir or not), we have no original manuscripts...we don't even have exact copies of the original manuscripts....

[Mr. Peanut]

Peter, Jude, and John, who wrote the gospel, three letters, and the Book of Revelation, never employs it in a single instance.

Hi!

??? I am aghast at such deduction. The concept of condemnation being eternal is understood by all of these men and has been understood by those who have engaged in diligent study of scripture throughout history. Peter mentions Hell in 2 Peter 2:4, John mentions Hell in Rev 1:18, 6:8, 20:13 &14. Jude mentions, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. ch.1 v. 7.

You mentioned Paul, who wrote in Romans, To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil..

John mentions eternal life several times in John. Certainly, as he was familiar with several Old Testament Scriptures such as these from Isaiah and Daniel, he understood eternal damnation, for which he used the word condemnation opposed to eternal life, as well?: The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Indeed these men all understood the truths of eternal life and eternal wrath, condemnation, judgement, etc. Jude understood this quite well when he said, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Alas, I planned not to become engaged in such a futile endeavor with one who does not believe the very writings he argues from.

Cheers!

[Mr. Peanut]

Originally Posted by GreenKepi;1006514[quote=GreenKepi

Please enlighten me...where do you obtain the opinion that I am no believer in the Bible whatsoever...what later posts!? From the Bible is where I base my beliefs on...but let me ask you a question. When you say Bible...which version? What year of translation? Because...as you call me, "Sir" (and you are not even sure if I am a sir or not), we have no original manuscripts...we don't even have exact copies of the original manuscripts....

Hi!

Perhaps I was mistaken in your belief in the Bible, that, to me is most refreshing. On the other hand, with the next stroke of the keyboard, you question the Bible as we have no original manuscripts. Jesus Christ did not have an original manuscript, yet he ascribed them as being scripture from God. It is silly to think of a Bible of all original manuscript, a rock tablet or two here, a piece of animal skin there, a scroll, some papyrus. Again you seem to question the authenticity of the Bible, although you claim to believe it and base your beliefs on it. Very curious, indeed!

Cheers!

P.S. Pardon me for calling you sir. That you know what you are is sufficient to me.

[GreenKepi]

No problem...sorry for causing you to become "aghast'd"...however, again...the Bible does not teach eternal damnation as taught by mainstream Christianity. Yes, I agree with you concerning the word "eternal"...however, this means (to me)...as taught in the Old Testament...the grave...the soul is destroyed. Eternal life is only promised to those that are saved. Just to touch on one of your Scriptures...2 Peter 2:4 - the word used in the King James is Hell, I agree. However, if you'll notice...it explains that the word is Hades. That's not Hell as you believe. That's my only point. Please don't get so "worked" up. I'm only attempting to study and hear other opinions. I am not going to enter into debates like I am reading in other forums. There's so much to discuss on this topic...it appears impossible. I'd find it much better to study with non-Christians. But let me ask you one more question...wouldn't you find it beyond words to actually someday (which we will) find out that God hasn't (in His love) only destroys souls of the unsaved eternally and not allow some little confused, nice, wonderful, loving, giving, "grandma" to suffer end-less torment? I think my God is that type of God!!!

[Mr. Peanut]

Originally Posted by GreenKepi

No problem...sorry for causing you to become "aghast'd"

Hi!

its wry humor, you cannot cause me to become aghast or worked up.

...however, again...the Bible does not teach eternal damnation as taught by mainstream Christianity.

I and thousands of theologians across the ages disagree.

Yes, I agree with you concerning the word "eternal"...however, this means (to me)...as taught in the Old Testament...the grave...the soul is destroyed.

Perhaps you should become a 7th Day Adventist with this belief of annihilation of the soul. This teaching goes against the teaching that, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night.

Eternal life is only promised to those that are saved.

We will all spend eternity somewhere.

Just to touch on one of your Scriptures...2 Peter 2:4 - the word used in the King James is Hell, I agree. However, if you'll notice...it explains that the word is Hades. That's not Hell as you believe. That's my only point.

First, the word is NOT Hades, but Tartarus, which is HELL, here! You are lying or are using poor scholarship. Even if this was just hades, which it is not, the verse in full states, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; No matter how you slice it, they are in Hell awaiting final, eternal judgement in the Lake of Fire.

Every translation I have referenced uses Hell, not Hades, here!(?)! The actual Greek word is Tartarus, defined in wikipedia as: Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Τάρταρος, deep place). It is either a deep, gloomy place, a pit or abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides within Hades or the entire underworld with Hades being the hellish component.

Please don't get so "worked" up. I'm only attempting to study and hear other opinions. I am not going to enter into debates like I am reading in other forums. There's so much to discuss on this topic...it appears impossible.

I am not worked up, and, you brought it up.

I'd find it much better to study with non-Christians.

Yes, they should know the Bible better than Christians who spend their lives in dilligent study as scripture commands.

But let me ask you one more question...wouldn't you find it beyond words to actually someday (which we will) find out that God hasn't (in His love) only destroys souls of the unsaved eternally and not allow some little confused, nice, wonderful, loving, giving, "grandma" to suffer end-less torment? I think my God is that type of God!!!

God shows no partiality and is very plain in his revelation to us. Annihilation of the wicked is a false doctrine accepted only by SDA's and perhaps some fringe elements. God knows the heart of all and will be fair. A "nice, wonderful, loving, giving" person sounds like someone who has the fruits and attributes of the Spirit of God already. To dismiss the repeated, plain teaching of God's Word on this subject, is erroneous and in rejecting this revelation of God, you are following your own God. But not the God of the Bible, which teaches beyond doubt the eternal condemnation and contempt of the wicked.

Cheers!

[redwine]

Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut

Hi!

its wry humor, you cannot cause me to become aghast or worked up. I and thousands of theologians across the ages disagree.Perhaps you should become a 7th Day Adventist with this belief of annihilation of the soul. This teaching goes against the teaching that, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night. We will all spend eternity somewhere.First, the word is NOT Hades, but Tartarus, which is HELL, here! You are lying or are using poor scholarship. Even if this was just hades, which it is not, the verse in full states, For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; No matter how you slice it, they are in Hell awaiting final, eternal judgement in the Lake of Fire.

You are correct, the word used is not hades, neither is it hell, but a word only used once in the NT. It's tartarus, as you say, but comes from greek and roman mythology. Christianity has mixed it's beliefs to that of the pagans, as witnessed in their beliefs in pagan 'tartarus'. Hades and sheol both are synomous and simply means the grave and death. Seems people continually follow after strange gods and beliefs of the pagans, as they constantly did in the OT. Things have not changed much, it would appear.

Every translation I have referenced uses Hell, not Hades, here!(?)! The actual Greek word is Tartarus, defined in wikipedia as: Tartarus, or Tartaros (Greek Τάρταρος, deep place). It is either a deep, gloomy place, a pit or abyss used as a dungeon of torment and suffering that resides within Hades or the entire underworld with being the hellish component.

Actually not every translation uses the word hell, some actually use tartarus in that verse in question. Yes, it is the deepest part of the grave, but then you got into mythology derived from paganism in your definition. Hell is simply the grave and death, not a fiery pit. Many mix the two.

I am not worked up, and, you brought it up. Yes, they should know the Bible better than Christians who spend their lives in dilligent study as scripture commands. God shows no partiality and is very plain in his revelation to us. Annihilation of the wicked is a false doctrine accepted only by SDA's and perhaps some fringe elements. God knows the heart of all and will be fair. A "nice, wonderful, loving, giving" person sounds like someone who has the fruits and attributes of the Spirit of God already. To dismiss the repeated, plain teaching of God's Word on this subject, is erroneous and in rejecting this revelation of God, you are following your own God. But not the God of the Bible, which teaches beyond doubt the eternal condemnation and contempt of the wicked.

Cheers!

Eternal conscious torment is derived from paganism. Annihilation makes no sense scripturally either, for when it comes to living in eternal hell, goes against the penalty of sin, which is death, and to be existing no more would mean God created many people in vain, seeing He could not save them.

I believe that the Father gave Christ all His power, and sent Him to save sinners, the lost and the ungodly. I believe that power is True and unstoppable, and rest in His righteous judgments, knowing that they produce righteousness. His punishments serve a purpose with a goal in mind, not just to punish for the sake of punishing, for then it would not be punishment, but evil. Yet, I understand those who believe in hell, it's a doctrine embellished by the majority, but this is not how God has revealed Himself to me.

Hope you can understand. Peace.

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by rocka21

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.



Next thread........

That's a vision and has nothing to do with the nature of hell but was pointing out the problems of the prevailing religious thought of the time.

Next try......

[sandy whitelinger]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

"Hell" is being out of coffee in the morning.

Amen...it's torment as well.

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by Peanut

The book is Jesus'/God's revelation to us, revealing to us things which shall soon come to pass, verse one: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass. I'm new, too, however, wordage, as you say, while one may use casual language at times, wordage is very important in understanding exactly what an author or anyone is trying to convey. If the first verse read something like, these are the revelations of John to show us wild images and fantasies we may never be able to have even a small understanding of, of things which may or may not come to pass anywhere but in my dreams...Then we might call it revelations. But this is the revealing of things which will come to pass shortly, by the Lord Jesus Christ the divine, which God, who cannot lie gave to him. Alas, as I read your later posts, I see you are no believer in the Bible whatsoever, yet you asked us to give proof from same for the doctrine of eternal punishment of the wicked. When presented with verses which imply such doctrine, you revealed your true design and contempt for the very scripture you wished to base your theory from. This will not do, sir. This will not do, not for me. No, no no!

The Book of Revelations was written by Beelzebub as an allegorical description of the Destruction of Judaism (Dragon), Christianity (the False Prophet) and Islam (the Beast).

[GreenKepi]

Redwine...you are correct on your comment about the translations. It's amazing to me that many will get so angry if their belief on Hell is apparently challenged. Hell, as Mr. Peanut believes, was not taught up until around the 4th century. The old Jews never taught it, as did the Catholics, when they started using it to gather money thru penitence, etc. I'm not trying to prove myself "right" and others wrong. I just find it so interesting that so many get all bent out of shape over this discussion. During the Dark Ages, fear and the doctrines of fear and of demons were used to control the world. The pagan doctrine of eternal torment was added to the Latin Vulgate. The Protestant Bible closest to the doctrines of Romanism, the KJV, has the phrase "everlasting punishment"only once, and the phrase "everlasting destruction" only once. Again I ask, if this be the horrible fate of most of humankind, why such a little warning? Jesus was talking about national judgment...not individual.